guys, they are making it harder to hate thumpers...

[MICK]

Yamaha's FI have been problematic on their sleds too...

[kkvslayer]

[/quote]
No I'm not kidding...but I agree atleast partly to what you said. This is the difference as I see it. Poor jetting sucks, poor fuel injection is a BIG FUCKING problem! Worst case scenario may cause engine failure for each. But a carburetor is fixed for dimes and nickles whereas a stab at a fuel injection problem costs as much as a complete two stroke rebuild and you'd better hope the problem is resolved. Most carb problems can be fixed with a screw driver. No FI problem is fixed without $$[/quote]

yup,first time-400 bucks for 1 cylinder wall & 75 bucks to replace one piston
what I need this time-how bout 800 bucks for 2 cylinder walls,700 bucks for a crankshaft,150 bucks for a (cheap) topend kit

There is no chance in hell I'm gonna put that much into this machine again,If and when I get a new one(hopefully soon)It'll be carbed

[AlisoBob]

The compression braking freaks me out every time I ride a modern thumper.

THe Sherco has a button to turn up the idle to lesson the Compression Braking feel..... It just made me overshoot everything...



Nice bike though...

[kkvslayer]

Yamaha's FI have been problematic on their sleds too...

Theres 4 or 5 yamaha 4 stroke efi sleds here and they seem to do ok as long as its not too cold out,they're problems are elseware

[AlisoBob]

Just that when it comes to dirt bikes I'd rather have a carburetor...for now

X2

30 miles from the truck, and ANYTHING takes a shit ( Stator, battery, pump, brain, TPS, MAPP sensor, wiring chaffs, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, )

Its long friggin' push.

I have seen CR500's limp in with shatterd clutch covers, eating their own guts ( Britincali's bike as an example), broken parts, pushed out gaskets, no coolant..... you name it.

I cant see EFI being as reliable as the motor its bolted to...

[dannygraves]

the sled problems might be related to the air temp sensor. One thing I learned while I was setting up and configuring the standalone fuel and ign system I had on my starion (SDS type F) is sensors has certain acuracr problems at extremes. The SDS system used all GM sensors, except the TPS was ford, so its safe to say the parts used were industry standard. well, with the coolant temp sensor for example it would read within 1 degree between like 100 and 200 below or above 20 were in 5 degree intervals, then above 200, it went to 230 then 320. the designers don't expect a motor to run in these temps, so they don't bother making them rear with acuracy except to tell the ecu there is a problem and go into open loop. I had a cooling problem with it at first because of some messed up timing, a coolant leak and sitting in traffic. I could watch the read out on the controller and watch it go 180, 181, 182, 183, then after 200 it would sit for a long time until it hit 230, then if it hit 320, I was hopefully pulled over by then.
The point I am trying to make is perhaps the air temp sensors are doing the same thing in the extreme low temps. maybe they only read to -20*c, so when it is below that the ecu doesn't make any corrections. You are way the hell up there and they probably don't expect people to hit those kind of low temps everyday. I bet they found the problem and changed out the sensors and mapping on the newer ones to compensate. of coarse, if you had a programmer, you could probably just fatten up the fuel curve a few percent and it would run tits for years.

[dannygraves]

I don't know there Bob, I have had stator failures that could have left me stranded on a 500.
they have been using digital CDIs for 11 years, TPS for 5, the only new stuff is the fuel pump and injector, the rest is a tested and true system. Its battery-less and uses a solid state fuel pump relay in the CDI so vibes won't be a prob. sounds like a pretty robust setup to me and suzuki started it a year ago and I haven't heard any complaints. Now kawi and honda are doing it and I'm guessing we'll see something from blue next year.
That sherco was one sick bike and I asked him tons of question and I bet if anyone were going to make a bike fail, he was one of them and he said he didn't have any injection problems.

Working on my car way back when I had the SDS system, I was scared and worried about reliability, but I ended up LOVING it. I came from changing springs, jets and rods to tune a carb and weights and vac advance on dizzys to having a controller and making on the fly adjustments. if I wanted to spike my timing at 2000 rpm for 500 rpm to get the turbo spool, it was as simple as hitting a few buttons. It my EGTs were spiking, I could richen fuel and retard the timing without even slowing down. I think FI on dirtbikes is just the begining of entirely new ways to make your bike do waht you want.

[AlisoBob]

Dump it on a hill once, push in the rad, rad cuts the wiring bundle.... start pushing...

Simple as that.

Dirt bikes arent cars.

Brits NOS bike is down, because that little Faucet fuel pump took a shit.

Those things go 200k miles on VW's, not on dirtbikes.

[dannygraves]

well, I'm blaming that on british ownership brits and electronics don't mix!

[AlisoBob]

The fuel pump is sealed, no moving parts, and Brit -Proof....

Still failed.

Pushing sux

[dannygraves]

I'm still blaming brit! he probably got all fucked up and left the gas cap off at dumont and pushed a bunch of sand through the pump

[Skidmark]

Just that when it comes to dirt bikes I'd rather have a carburetor...for now

X2

30 miles from the truck, and ANYTHING takes a shit ( Stator, battery, pump, brain, TPS, MAPP sensor, wiring chaffs, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, )

Its long friggin' push.

I have seen CR500's limp in with shatterd clutch covers, eating their own guts ( Britincali's bike as an example), broken parts, pushed out gaskets, no coolant..... you name it.

I cant see EFI being as reliable as the motor its bolted to...

Now, didn't we hear all this same banter back when ignition points were replaced..or liquid cooling came into play? Heaven forbid we ride with PLASTIC gas tanks.."they'll split right open the first time ya fall!" "Synthetic Pre-Mix!?!? Hell NO ! That'll kill ya dead!"

Too funny.

Later Hoons...I'm going riding.

"Skiddy"

[AlisoBob]

Hell no.... EFI is different.

[dannygraves]

hey, my old at-1 ran great and it had points, air cooled, non-reed, round slide carb, no expansion chamber, etc. Oh wait, it blew a topend because the oil injection pump failed There is always something, but advances in technology aren't all bad.

[AlisoBob]

1. Its is a HONDA

2. They should have armored the wiring

3. I'm sure the "in tank" pump is very robust, and has a pre filter

4. See #1

I think it will work fine at the track, but like I said..... 30 miles from the truck..no thanks.

[dannygraves]

Hell no.... EFI is different.

how? because fuel will always be metered properly and there will be changes in fuel and timing curves based on current conditions to help lessen engine failure and keep engine performance optimal. I ate it once because my pilot was way too rich and the bike blubbered when I blipped it to whillie over a rut at low speed... not a problem with FI.

[ellett]

I cant see EFI being as reliable as the motor its bolted to...

Early adopters always seem to get burned. But I can't imagine EFI not being just as reliable as any other electronic component on a dirtbike.
Eventually.

[AlisoBob]

Hell no.... EFI is different.

how?

Electronic ignition still uses :

A spark plug
A coil
Electricity

All left over from a standard "Kettering" ignition....

For electronic ignition, You sub the points for a pulse generator ( 10X more reliable than points) and a CDI unit... ( also pretty darn reliable)

EFI has MANY different components , all Electro/ Mechanical in nature, spread all over the bike, and connected by at least 15' wires and plugs.

How many different failure combinations do you thing there are?

[kkvslayer]

They will still go even if you got a warning light going off,thats the scary part it tells you something is fugd but will still keep going,so you better make sure you know the codes off the top of your head and get this when my F7 locked up last spring I didn't get one warning light,one piston has a hole burnt right through it and the other is smeared all over the wall on the exhaust side

[dannygraves]

They will still go even if you got a warning light going off,thats the scary part it tells you something is fugd but will still keep going,so you better make sure you know the codes off the top of your head and get this when my F7 locked up last spring I didn't get one warning light,one piston has a hole burnt right through it and the other is smeared all over the wall on the exhaust side

ya, that light is probably for "you better chill out and head to the truck before you are walking "

[ellett]

Imagine the EFI going into "limp-home" mode on a jump face.

[dannygraves]

Hell no.... EFI is different.

how?

Electronic ignition still uses :

A spark plug
A coil
Electricity

All left over from a standard "Kettering" ignition....

For electronic ignition, You sub the points for a pulse generator ( 10X more reliable than points) and a CDI unit... ( also pretty darn reliable)

EFI has MANY different components , all Electro/ Mechanical in nature, spread all over the bike, and connected by at least 15' wires and plugs.

How many different failure combinations do you thing there are?

well, the '04+ cr250 has digital ignition with an ECU, TPS, powervalve servo and all the stuff to power it. I never heard one complaint. add a fuel pump (1 or 2 wires) and an injector (1 or 2 wires), air temp sensor and water temp sensor. all probably relatively close to eachother and powered off 1 additional harness with a max of 8 wires in it plus an o2 sensor down front, probably not far from the main harness coming out the stator cover, 1 wire. but no 4 wire powervalve servo like the cr250. that takes us down to an additional 5 wires max and one additional harness going to the TB and fuel tank. doesn't sound like all that much additional wire or plugs.
Fuel pumps work forever as long as you give them good voltage, not too much pressure, no solid particles and no heat. O2 sensore only really fail by some other failure (too rich or coolant coming through). TPS's almost never fail, same with temp sensors. As with any FI system, it will go into an open loop if any sensor fails. All that means is even if all the sensors fail it will have a base factory tune that it is guaranteed to run on. This is probably the light KKV is talking about. and would allow you to get safely back to the truck.

[dannygraves]

so, lets see, how many additional failure paoint does that really give us...
stator, cdi/ecu (could fail on older systems too). Additional wired to TB or TPS (could fail on a '04 cr250 as well) Fuel injector varnish up (happens to jets all the time), fuel pump (it will be a filtered source, safe from heat inside the tank and have a good regulated power source, but could still be a potential new problem)

oh, and I forgot earlier about either MAP and MAF, but that only an additional couple wires and will run w/o in an open loop.

so, that leads me to the conclusion that a fuel pump failure is the only real new risk to getting stranded on a trail. not too bad of a risk considering all the perks.

[dannygraves]

Imagine the EFI going into "limp-home" mode on a jump face.

my old car used to jump in and out of open and closed loop because I had a cam that didn't build enough vacuum (before I switched to the sds). when it made the jump it wasn't too noticeable. although, I bet it would fuck up the approach on a jump, I don't see it killing the motor with a big "pop" mid air on a jump like the carbed 450s seem to suffer from. you can squeek a 2 stroke approaching a jump too... its all relative.

[AlisoBob]

[Fuel pumps work forever as long as you give them good voltage, not too much pressure

I bet its running something like 80 psi