Frame heat treatment post welding

oggo69 · Post by **oggo69** » January 23rd, 2009, 2:11 am

can anyone give me some info , what temps and for how long , i have an coded aircraft welder lined up to do my welding , i want to see if he can heat treat it too , he might know himself but if i have some info or reasons why it would be great , ta in advance

oggo

teemtrubble · Post by **teemtrubble** » January 23rd, 2009, 9:34 am

oggo,

I thought someone would have asked this question long ago

Make sure the material is 6061 and the welder uses 4000 series rod. If you don't put a vent hole in the right places the frame will blow up like a balloon especially in the cradle area.

Tell the Heat treater to:

1) "Heat treat and age to "T6"
Note to heat treater* Write and tell verbally to call you after heat treat so you can go drop a motor in the frame to make sure it's straight before final age. This is "VERY" important.

2) "Times and Temps to AMS 2770 only"

3) "Spray Quench only"

If you have any other questions ask and make sure you go over this with the Heat treater and he understands it if he doesn't find someone else.

So much for this not being rocket science

oggo69 · Post by **oggo69** » January 23rd, 2009, 9:41 am

mike thanks , that is exactly what i am looking for , i know u filled me in about the 4K filler rod and 6061 , but ur top man for giving me this info .
much appreciated , i was turner for years doing cnc etc , and IMO this is what will determine the true life of a AF build

virtual beers on me

oggo

teemtrubble · Post by **teemtrubble** » January 23rd, 2009, 9:47 am

Your Welcome!

Tell the welder to use Helium and Argon it burns hotter

In my opinion it's the first smart question ever asked on all the forums.

oggo69 · Post by **oggo69** » January 23rd, 2009, 9:53 am

teemtrubble wrote:Your Welcome!

Tell the welder to use Helium and Argon it burns hotter

In my opinion it's the first smart question ever asked on all the forums.

i will tell him mike , top man thanks

teemtrubble · Post by **teemtrubble** » January 23rd, 2009, 9:56 am

Now get to building that thing already!

oggo69 · Post by **oggo69** » January 24th, 2009, 9:22 am

teemtrubble wrote:Now get to building that thing already!

frame leaves the UK on monday , should be with me by the end of the week , was with my pal earlier , his bro is the welder , he has the full facilties to weld and heat treat the frame and it will also be gamma rayed too

did i mention i cant wait to get started

teemtrubble · Post by **teemtrubble** » January 24th, 2009, 12:49 pm

Cool man! Can't wait to see pic's of your build.

hahaha It's funny no one else chimed in...

KE 336 · Post by **KE 336** » January 26th, 2009, 7:38 am

Okay, I guess I'll be dumb enough to chime in. Do we really know what all series of aluminum Honda uses in their frames? Some of the parts are cast, others extruded then it is all welded together. While probably not too important in our frames, different alloys react differently to temperature and the heating and cooling rates. Mike, you are right about the rocket science. There is enough reading to make your brain hurt if you look at all the effects of the different alloys!
I'm planning a slightly different method. I'm going to do a vacuum stress relief nitrogen gas fan cool (hope to eliminate any warpage) and then precipitation harden.
Mike, I did want to ask if you've had any problems with the steel nutserts
becoming loose or falling out during the solution process? And, is the corrosion resistent coating on them burnt off?

juddy · Post by **juddy** » January 27th, 2009, 6:58 am

I'm planning a slightly different method. I'm going to do a vacuum stress relief nitrogen gas fan cool (hope to eliminate any warpage) and then precipitation harden.

Any chance of explaining to average joe exactly how this process works ?

KE 336 · Post by **KE 336** » January 27th, 2009, 12:23 pm

juddy wrote:I'm planning a slightly different method. I'm going to do a vacuum stress relief nitrogen gas fan cool (hope to eliminate any warpage) and then precipitation harden.

Any chance of explaining to average joe exactly how this process works ?

It just means I will use a vacuum furnace to heat and quench without having to touch or move the frame when switching from heating to cooling. Will it work? I don't know yet. I'm going to play with some scrap stuff before I ever think about sticking my frame in there.

teemtrubble · Post by **teemtrubble** » January 27th, 2009, 1:48 pm

What spec's are you working to and your frame will be softer with a longer and more expensive Cryogenic quench.

Compressive surface stresses will help reduce fatigue.

I think your process is more for Chromoly or steel than Aluminum

Most vacum furnace's operate and 1200 deg minimun so who would do it?

With aluminum you need to be at 980 plus and minus 5 degrees.

KE 336 · Post by **KE 336** » January 29th, 2009, 6:40 am

I'm going by ASM guides of Heat Treatment of aluminum. That was kind of my point in my first post. The specs are different for castings VS wrought. Cast calls for several hours @ 940-1000deg, both time and temp dependent on which series the aluminum is. The tubing on the other hand only calls for minutes at temperature depending on thickness.
My only thinking of use of the vacuum furnace is was I could do the "air blast" quench without any manipulating of the frame therefore reducing risk of distortion. The only difference is the "air" would be nitrogen gas.
I have a vacuum furnace available to me calibrated from 900-2100deg.
As I said, I'm going to do much playing with some scrap stuff before I ever think of doing my frame. Who knows, the vacuum part alone might have a negative effect. Might turn it into a molten pile of shit for all I know.

dannygraves · Post by **dannygraves** » January 29th, 2009, 7:53 am

uuummm, I like pizza...

I didn't heat tread any of my frames, so I have no idea what you guys are talking about. I jusat wonder if the risk of warpage and all the work to clean up the frame after heat treating makes it worth it.

oggo69 · Post by **oggo69** » January 29th, 2009, 8:05 am

dannygraves wrote: uuummm, I like pizza... I didn't heat tread any of my frames, so I have no idea what you guys are talking about. I jusat wonder if the risk of warpage and all the work to clean up the frame after heat treating makes it worth it.

i think its well worth it , with all the heat from welding the frame has anealed and lost all/some of the alu properties , i know this could be argued by guys that have AF's with no issues to date , basically the idea is to bring the frame back to the original state it left the factory in , Honda do it for a reason .

to my understanding (someone correct me here) the heat treatment helps to "settle" molecules that have been "upset" by cutting an welding of the frame , so its more of a molecule stability thing within the alu

KE 336 · Post by **KE 336** » January 29th, 2009, 11:45 am

oggo69 wrote:
dannygraves wrote: uuummm, I like pizza... I didn't heat tread any of my frames, so I have no idea what you guys are talking about. I jusat wonder if the risk of warpage and all the work to clean up the frame after heat treating makes it worth it.
i think its well worth it , with all the heat from welding the frame has anealed and lost all/some of the alu properties , i know this could be argued by guys that have AF's with no issues to date , basically the idea is to bring the frame back to the original state it left the factory in , Honda do it for a reason .
to my understanding (someone correct me here) the heat treatment helps to "settle" molecules that have been "upset" by cutting an welding of the frame , so its more of a molecule stability thing within the alu

See, that is another question. Does Honda Heat Treat the frames?
My guess is they slap the components in a jig and some fucking robot
mig welds it together and on down the line it travels. Some of those OEM welds are pretty ugly!
I also think heat treatment is worth it as long as you have a proven and
controlled process like Mike has for doing it. There is a very narrow temperature window between benefit or totally screwing the whole thing up. You go overtemp, you might as well melt it down and start over!

teemtrubble · Post by **teemtrubble** » January 29th, 2009, 11:49 am

Your both correct I posted the process for everyone to see there you have it finding someone to do it well...

davo77 · Post by **davo77** » January 30th, 2009, 5:06 pm

See, that is another question. Does Honda Heat Treat the frames?

I have been wondering that my self. i bought a brandnew 2007 cr125 frame form ebay awhile ago, and all the welds on the inside of the frame spars and generally anywhere you cannot see on the completed bike still had all the black sooty shit every where from the mig welding process. i would have thought this soot would have been washed off in the process of heat treatment ?????

oggo69 · Post by **oggo69** » February 5th, 2009, 10:02 am

taken from wikipedia , i know sometimes wiki is not 100% accurate but here ya go anyway , just something to note

Welding
6061 is highly weldable, for example using tungsten inert gas welding (TIG) or metal inert gas welding (MIG). Typically, after welding, the properties near the weld are those of 6061-0, a loss of strength of around 80%. The material can be re-heat-treated to restore -T4 or -T6 temper for the whole piece.

teemtrubble · Post by **teemtrubble** » February 5th, 2009, 10:14 am

I know that's why we Heat Treat them after final assembly and welding...

Not to mention what it does when you bend the tubing without Annealing

oggo69 · Post by **oggo69** » February 5th, 2009, 10:27 am

teemtrubble wrote:I know that's why we Heat Treat them after final assembly and welding...

Not to mention what it does when you bend the tubing without Annealing

hairline fractures spring to mind !!, i am having a head ache trying to get 6061 , online metals have it , but want 80 dollars for shipping

, i might have to go with it ... just waiting for my motor to arrive before i start the chopping

Morris500 · Post by **Morris500** » February 5th, 2009, 1:18 pm

I would just like to formally thank Mike of TTM for sending me the pipe and silencer for my CR125 conversion. Your advice on heat treating procedure is also very much appreciated. The fact that you're willing to share this hard to find information with the other home builders out there is just awesome! Thanks again, Mike!

Balaclava · Post by **Balaclava** » February 5th, 2009, 10:06 pm

oggo69 wrote:i am having a head ache trying to get 6061 , online metals have it , but want 80 dollars for shipping , i might have to go with it

unless you live in the boonies i don't understand how you would be having a hard time getting this stuff...i live in Canada and i know of like three to four metals shops that carry the stuff...and like hundreds of feet of it...Do you not have metals shops where you live? get on the phone man and make some calls...i have never had any problem finding material...

oggo69 · Post by **oggo69** » February 6th, 2009, 6:10 am

Balaclava wrote:
oggo69 wrote:i am having a head ache trying to get 6061 , online metals have it , but want 80 dollars for shipping , i might have to go with it
unless you live in the boonies i don't understand how you would be having a hard time getting this stuff...i live in Canada and i know of like three to four metals shops that carry the stuff...and like hundreds of feet of it...Do you not have metals shops where you live? get on the phone man and make some calls...i have never had any problem finding material...

i have sent 6 or 7 mails to co's in the UK , one replied and wont sell that small quanity i want , and that was avaition materials supplier , i can get 6063 , 6082 without any hassle or off the shelf here , i dont understand it myself either to be honest , i thought this was the easy part of the frame build

, i got word back from online metals and they confirmed shipping is 78 dollars for 16 dollars worth of material , so it looks like i will have to go with it , no biggy really just did not intend on spending that much money for 12" of square bar and 12" of flat stock , someone told me yesterday 6082 is the euro version of 6061 ... but when i cross ref properties it is not smiliar enough

Balaclava · Post by **Balaclava** » February 6th, 2009, 1:35 pm

oggo69 wrote:
Balaclava wrote:
oggo69 wrote:i am having a head ache trying to get 6061 , online metals have it , but want 80 dollars for shipping , i might have to go with it
unless you live in the boonies i don't understand how you would be having a hard time getting this stuff...i live in Canada and i know of like three to four metals shops that carry the stuff...and like hundreds of feet of it...Do you not have metals shops where you live? get on the phone man and make some calls...i have never had any problem finding material...
i have sent 6 or 7 mails to co's in the UK , one replied and wont sell that small quanity i want , and that was avaition materials supplier , i can get 6063 , 6082 without any hassle or off the shelf here , i dont understand it myself either to be honest , i thought this was the easy part of the frame build , i got word back from online metals and they confirmed shipping is 78 dollars for 16 dollars worth of material , so it looks like i will have to go with it , no biggy really just did not intend on spending that much money for 12" of square bar and 12" of flat stock , someone told me yesterday 6082 is the euro version of 6061 ... but when i cross ref properties it is not smiliar enough

Well roostius is the man for sure...didn't mean to break your balls over it...pictures!!

BannedCR500Riders.com

Frame heat treatment post welding

Frame heat treatment post welding