CPI "LIGER" Cylinder project

2strokeforever · Post by **2strokeforever** » October 22nd, 2010, 9:07 pm

200hp would be a bit of a dream

not really
pipes reeds and tuning people see 180hp out of the same m1000.... drag port it and youll get 200 horse easy

but i personaly think id rather run 14 lbs boost through a single cylinder 500 via aerocharger and make 100 hp... and build boost off idle

it would add 20 lbs and wouldnt be a tank

100hp honda · Post by **100hp honda** » October 22nd, 2010, 9:44 pm

2 cr500 hooked together aint gonna be 200hp. would be a good dream though.

2strokeforever · Post by **2strokeforever** » October 22nd, 2010, 11:41 pm

2 cr500 hooked together aint gonna be 200hp. would be a good dream though

but if someone went through all the trouble of hooking them together chances is theyll have a bunch of work done
if its stock prolly only 150

Slomo · Post by **Slomo** » October 23rd, 2010, 5:44 am

2strokeforever wrote:
Please explain to me how engines making 60hp each when combined suddenly make 200hp total.
arctic cat m1000 snowmobile
The proven 999cc power plant is a good motor and remains unchained for 2010. the 90.3 x 70 bore and stroke twin-cylinder two-stroke mill delivers 162 HP at 7,250 – 7,300 rpm, and a whopping 116-to 118-foot-pounds of torque.
so bump the port time up so it peaks around 8500 and youll have your 200 horse
i think a 500 peak torque is at 6700rpm ish

Isn't an M1000 160hp?
That means nothing to me. I want to understand the exponential deal.
Let's talk CR500 engines only- How does 60+60=200?

rsss396 · Post by **rsss396** » October 23rd, 2010, 6:19 am

The arctic cat 1000's are 160ish in horsepower stock but I have personally seen 220 hp race 1000's and 250 hp 1200's (bored stock cylinder) on race gas for both.

but there is a 150hp 500cc turbo charged Sabertooth quad out there.

here's the dyno sheet

NightBiker07 · Post by **NightBiker07** » October 23rd, 2010, 8:23 am

Slomo wrote:
2strokeforever wrote:
Please explain to me how engines making 60hp each when combined suddenly make 200hp total.
arctic cat m1000 snowmobile
The proven 999cc power plant is a good motor and remains unchained for 2010. the 90.3 x 70 bore and stroke twin-cylinder two-stroke mill delivers 162 HP at 7,250 – 7,300 rpm, and a whopping 116-to 118-foot-pounds of torque.
so bump the port time up so it peaks around 8500 and youll have your 200 horse
i think a 500 peak torque is at 6700rpm ish

Isn't an M1000 160hp?
That means nothing to me. I want to understand the exponential deal.
Let's talk CR500 engines only- How does 60+60=200?

because when you start adding cylinders, you dont add the individual cylinder power together. i dont really know how to explain clearly what i am thinking.....

think of it like this. at the intake/compression stroke of cylinder 1 (the weakest part of the entire cycle because the cylinder has to compress the air/fuel mixture), you have cylinder two firing and "pushing" cylinder 1 through its compression stroke. So, the motor never has a chance to "slow down" at that weak point in the cycle.

just look up the Honda NSR250. its a 250cc two stroke twin cylinder. ive seen dyno sheets of these bad ass machines pumping out 75+HP without big bore or nitrous....good luck getting that out of a single cylinder 250.

100hp honda · Post by **100hp honda** » October 23rd, 2010, 9:10 am

some of you guys are over-optimistic and thats good becuase it keeps people interested in reading these posts

. assuming you or your porter did have the knowledge to get 80hp from each cylinder your still well short of 200hp, simply connecting two 500 pistons to work together does not gain 40hp. 150hp may be more realistic even if everything is done right.

2strokeforever · Post by **2strokeforever** » October 23rd, 2010, 3:59 pm

simply connecting two 500 pistons to work together does not gain 40hp

well if you connect them both at tdc of course it dont...

but properly it wolud for sure... especialy if each cyl is putting out 80 horse
if anyone has a 80 horsepower cr500 dyno sheet please post it up

http://www.youtube.com/user/500bigbore · Post by **Roostius_Maximus** » October 23rd, 2010, 4:24 pm

it will more than double, i bet its 50+50 and ends up 115 atleast.
One piston is driving the other towards its compression stroke, more power is made on power stroke than it takes for a compression stroke obviously, so the engine makes more power by not spending as big of a percentage of its power to achieve compression, make sense

100hp honda · Post by **100hp honda** » October 23rd, 2010, 6:18 pm

2strokeforever wrote:
simply connecting two 500 pistons to work together does not gain 40hp
well if you connect them both at tdc of course it dont...
but properly it wolud for sure... especialy if each cyl is putting out 80 horse
if anyone has a 80 horsepower cr500 dyno sheet please post it up

2strokeforever · Post by **2strokeforever** » October 23rd, 2010, 7:58 pm

but if someone went through all the trouble of hooking them together chances is theyll have a bunch of work done
if its stock prolly only 150

now with drag porting and maybe alky 200hp would be easy
examples
genesis sled 1085cc twin, ya its custom and prolly on race gas NOT ALCOHOL

225HP and +145 ft. lbs. of Torque at only 8400 rpms

and to show that keeps going (but not near as drastic only 10 hp) heres a 1500cc triple

PSI 1500cc GENESIS V.E.P.!
320+ HP & 200 FT LBS OF TORQUE- WHO NEEDS VIAGRA?!?!?

now if we cross multiply the 1085 cc genesis to 2 cr 500 motors bolted together in the same state of tune, 8400rpm peak and same efficiency we get 982 X 225HP / 1085 = 203.6 horsepower

200hp would be a bit of a dream
not really
pipes reeds and tuning people see 180hp out of the same m1000.... drag port it and youll get 200 horse easy

o but i forgot because when a twin cylinder is in a bike it automatically makes 40 horse less

or is it when its in a snowmobile chasis it makes more
please explain how it cant get 200

100hp honda · Post by **100hp honda** » October 23rd, 2010, 8:25 pm

and who exactly will you call to get you 200hp..... eric gorr, gss, pro circuit ???

. seen a 89hp dyno before but i dont take it as gospel. dude could of fudged the numbers for all i know

dubious01 · Post by **dubious01** » October 24th, 2010, 5:55 am

You guys are way off topic.
RSSS put a very nice effort into supplying infop and now your talking about M1000, and twin cr500's.... which will never make 200 HP
Justa fuckin dream, and uneducated one at that.

come on,
jeez no wonder a guy spends hours and hours sifting through meaningless posts and bullshit to find the odd mediocre morsel of information...

where is the spam incinerator, I'd like to wipe the last page right off this thread.

bearorso · Post by **bearorso** » October 24th, 2010, 7:10 am

dubious01 wrote:You guys are way off topic.
RSSS put a very nice effort into supplying infop and now your talking about M1000, and twin cr500's.... which will never make 200 HP
Justa fuckin dream, and uneducated one at that.

come on,
jeez no wonder a guy spends hours and hours sifting through meaningless posts and bullshit to find the odd mediocre morsel of information...

where is the spam incinerator, I'd like to wipe the last page right off this thread.

Geez Dubious - you've just contribute your 'bit' of , what you'd call 'uneducated' opinion on the debate these blokes are having.

I find it hilarious that people don't think a 500 2t single could nudge or get over 100HP, and therefore a twin couldn't get over 200 HP.

Check out the 'Tularis' sometime - smaller than a 1000, yet I do think it would be calculated out , as a 1000, at over 200HP in in later guises - I think it was damned close as a 800 + capacity. And it was very 'rideable'.

Therein is the key - certainly a 500 single 2t could be made to make 100HP.

But it sure as hell wouldn't be very rideable, nor would it last long. For an extreme example, I don't think my brothers Keith Black engine (set with conservative supercharger settings - he's not rich- it's a consistent 7 second car in bracket racing - whatever that is.....

) from his drag car would be very driveable on the road, and I don't think it would last long as a road car engine.

Dave Thorpe, in a column he did in Dirt Bike Rider, for some years, would write about how, each year the Honda engineers would present him with massively powered 500s. Which the engineers would be happily saying they had acheived 90+ HP . He'd try them , and would work it back to something rideable - to my hazy recollection, he favoured a mid 70hp (at the crank), 4 and sometimes, 3 speeder, set up.

Check out the power outputs of the current single cylinder 125s in GPs, which are about to be made extinct (another fucking crime by the FIM / Honda). It will surprise some of you - and they are still useable, and last at least (well , the little blighters are intended to.......) the length of a GP. If the tuners of those little suckers were handed instructions of "give us Max power, that will last us [ whatever 'short' amount of time you wanted ], it would give a number that would make a breathed on 500 running on good race fuel a real fright up top. But it would be a bitch to even get moving.

Actually, I think the little screamers already Do make outright power readings that rival breathed on 500s

All I ever try to achieve from my 500, is continually smoothing / spreading the power, for my primarily single track / tight course and rare MX use. I haven't got much need to try get any more up top.

http://www.youtube.com/user/500bigbore · Post by **Roostius_Maximus** » October 24th, 2010, 8:11 am

my internet here at home is so slow i cant get into this site...www.mxworksbike.com
theres a spec page for a 2 cylinder 125cc 2stoke that was left for dead in the 80s

bearorso · Post by **bearorso** » October 24th, 2010, 8:41 am

Roostius_Maximus wrote:my internet here at home is so slow i cant get into this site...www.mxworksbike.com
theres a spec page for a 2 cylinder 125cc 2stoke that was left for dead in the 80s

Left for dead when the FIM banned twins from MX.

Funny how they allowed them in MX1 when Aprilia (mind you - Honda and the other Jap companies began developing twins for MX after Aprilia started testing and racing twin cylinder 125s) brought out the V twins. It's a pity they don't show the same flexibility in allowing 2 strokes to be the same capacity........

Check out your compatriot, Steve Mathes' web site, Pulp MX, and the part 2 of the Dave Arnold web cast. He speaks about the twins, plus many other things. Part one is good too - interesting is where he gets to the 4t question - a Very difficult thing for him to avoid getting in deep shit with his employer of many years, Honda.

100hp honda · Post by **100hp honda** » October 24th, 2010, 8:41 am

bearorso wrote:You guys are way off topic.
RSSS put a very nice effort into supplying infop and now your talking about M1000, and twin cr500's

we got alittle off topic

. rsss has a nice project that should run like a raped ape no doubt

I find it hilarious that people don't think a 500 2t single could nudge or get over 100HP, and therefore a twin couldn't get over 200 HP.

specifically we were talking honda 500. i dont claim to have seen a million cr500 dynos but of the ones ive seen only one has even been over 80hp. and its hard to say if the dude knew how to operate the dyno correctly. maybe he did, maybe he didnt. now if were talking calvins 500cc cylinder then 100hp could be doable. but calvins cylinders are in a class of their own above the honda. he could have chosen any port layout, theres a good reason why it looks the way it does

, looks nothing like a honda btw . you seem like a smart guy so im probly not telling you anything you dont already know.

Check out the power outputs of the current single cylinder 125s in GPs

smaller engines typically have more power per cc because of the higher efficiency.

dubious01 · Post by **dubious01** » October 24th, 2010, 8:43 am

bearorso,
I was reffering to 100 RWHP CR500 engine, stock cylinder configuration, gasoline, with a pipe that is suitable for offroad riding on a CR500...
It won't happen.

The expansion chamber design is very limited on a dirt bike, and once the engine is tuned proper, a stamped pipe would be lucky to see the other side of 65 RWHP on the happiest of dyno's, a custom cone pipe that is still practical for offroading lucky to acheive anything over 70 RWHP.
I doubt those numbers will even be acheived by only but a hand full of people, and on the happiest of dyno's.

What does all of this m1000 and other mutlicyclinder engine theories have to do with the Liger engine? nothing!
its all a dream, and the guys who have built them aren't wasting much time here bench racing.

A V8 5 liter as someone mention doesn't even compute.
simple math says you would need a 16 of CR500 cylinders to make 5 liters

I have no doubts someone else will take or make my post as personal, it was not meant that way,

My point was this thread has deviated like an epileptic attack behind the steering wheel.
Its too bad RSSS396 took the time to post many details and pictures, only to have it thread jacked.

bearorso · Post by **bearorso** » October 24th, 2010, 9:08 am

100hp honda wrote:
bearorso wrote:You guys are way off topic.
RSSS put a very nice effort into supplying infop and now your talking about M1000, and twin cr500's
we got alittle off topic . rsss has a nice project that should run like a raped ape no doubt

I find it hilarious that people don't think a 500 2t single could nudge or get over 100HP, and therefore a twin couldn't get over 200 HP.
specifically we were talking honda 500. i dont claim to have seen a million cr500 dynos but of the ones ive seen only one has even been over 80hp. and its hard to say if the dude knew how to operate the dyno correctly. maybe he did, maybe he didnt. now if were talking calvins 500cc cylinder then 100hp could be doable. but calvins cylinders are in a class of their own above the honda. he could have chosen any port layout, theres a good reason why it looks the way it does , looks nothing like a honda btw . you seem like a smart guy so im probly not telling you anything you dont already know.

Check out the power outputs of the current single cylinder 125s in GPs
smaller engines typically have more power per cc because of the higher efficiency.

That first one's not a quote by me. That's dubious'.

I'm sure a CR500 could be made to be 100hp, if you want specifics.

So, to be specific, I find it hilarious that people feel it's impossible to get 100hp out of a CR500 engine.

But, as I specifically said, it would not be very rideable / usable or reliable

Your last line - familiar with the saying, "teach your Grandma to suck eggs" ?

I'll also direct that to Dubious.

Dubious - I didn't take anything personal - I had no dog in this arse sniffing competition - it's just you seemed overly upset by others posts. I don't see many posts not drifting a fair bit here at times - it's what can make things a bit interesting. Oh, and by the way, ultimately, a pressed / hydro-formed pipe will make better power than a coned pipe. It's just that coned pipes are a hell of a lot cheaper to make a few of. Works 2ts, be they RR or MX, would try to use as many sections of the chamber as possible that were pressed or hydro-formed.

pstoffers · Post by **pstoffers** » October 24th, 2010, 9:22 am

100hp honda wrote: would be a good dream though.

Never stop dream-n dreams do come true!!!!

dubious01 · Post by **dubious01** » October 24th, 2010, 9:53 am

Bearorso,
whatever, I wasn't upset , but keep trying

There is no stamped pipe ou there that will support 100HP CR500, thus I said cone, as in custom made, for the same reasons you mentioned.

You still failed to see the point

this thread has turned gay.

NightBiker07 · Post by **NightBiker07** » October 24th, 2010, 3:38 pm

dubious01 wrote:
A V8 5 liter as someone mention doesn't even compute.
simple math says you would need a 16 of CR500 cylinders to make 5 liters

.

simple math says you dont know a thing about math......500cc=1/2 liter. so a v8 made out of cr5 cylinders would be 4 liters.....to get 5 liters, it would be 10 cylinders

rsss396 · Post by **rsss396** » October 24th, 2010, 4:30 pm

Relax guys, I was the one that mentioned the 8 cylinder 5 liter but that was going by my motors specs, 97mm bore X 85mm stroke is 630cc x 8=5040cc or 5liters.

But anyways I do not believe that 100hp is possible out of a stock cylinder cr500 on gas or alcohol. And I do believe there is a small amount of additive HP when 2 cylinders are compared to a single cylinder and roostius probably explained that in the best of layman's terms.

I hope people don't think I have posted with the intention of being arrogant,showing off or trying to be a know it all.
And while I may have came across defensive to some posts I really do welcome criticism or ideas.
While I am no beginner I definitely do not know everything there is.
The biggest problem with what I am doing and what the typical cr500 bike guy does is I want something that can get from point A to point B in the shortest amount of time.
And not many people anywhere else do either so that's the reason I hang out here and share what knowledge I have.
The cr500 in a quad is like being on the "Island of misfit toys" but hey I have always done things different and to tell you the truth there is not a weekend in the dunes where people do not crawl all over my 500 or snomo quad because they have never seen one like it and if they did it did not run like mine.

Been working around the house, put a car lift in my back garage so I can park stuff under the Camaro so nothing been done motor wise and winter's coming so I have to get my M1000 out to make it ready for the season.

later guys
Dave

jimmy_cr500 · Post by **jimmy_cr500** » October 24th, 2010, 7:26 pm

lol there is a page and a half here of mindless dribble based on a mythical "twin cylinder CR500"

NightBiker07 wrote: twin-cylinder cr500 engines i have seen make about 200

i asked to see the video of this beast but it hasnt been posted up?

i am sorry rsss for contributing to this mess lol, carry on with your awesome liger build!

100hp honda · Post by **100hp honda** » October 25th, 2010, 5:52 am

jimmy_cr500 wrote:i asked to see the video of this beast but it hasnt been posted up?

pics on the other site. probly video somewhere. couple guys said they seen it run at a hillclimb

BannedCR500Riders.com

CPI "LIGER" Cylinder project