What kind of fill rod are using?

[nmdesertrider]

What kind of fill rod are you using to weld your frames?

[bearorso]

What kind of fill rod are you using to weld your frames?

You'll find the most common rods used (at least here in OZ - you blokes might have some different specs /numbers) are 4043 and 5356.

I have used both with no problems, but mainly use 5356 as it has a better cross over with regards to 6061 and 7005 series alloy. My bicycle frames are in 6061, for repairs on many other frames, which are generally 7005, and my belief that the AF frames are largely 7000 series (cryzsurfer has tested the material and posted his opinion a few times on this) has led me to just use 5356 in my workshop.

[nmdesertrider]

Good to hear that- 5356 is supposed to stronger too- I think most weld shops will put 4043 on there because it is easy to use.

[dubious01]

You are correct
Back in 1997 when the first gen was released with all the buzz, dirt bike and dirt rider magazines had stated a few times that the frame was 7000 series aluminum.

[nmdesertrider]

This site has a bunch of info on fill materials for aluminum.

http://www.weldreality.com/aluminumalloys.htm

[100hp honda]

What kind of fill rod are you using to weld your frames?

You'll find the most common rods used (at least here in OZ - you blokes might have some different specs /numbers) are 4043 and 5356.

I have used both with no problems, but mainly use 5356 as it has a better cross over with regards to 6061 and 7005 series alloy. My bicycle frames are in 6061, for repairs on many other frames, which are generally 7005, and my belief that the AF frames are largely 7000 series (cryzsurfer has tested the material and posted his opinion a few times on this) has led me to just use 5356 in my workshop.

i vaguely remeber that post from crzysurfer, its been a long time but it seems there was still just as many questions as answers afterwards. but maybe my memory is bad ? so if there is 7005/7003 mixed with 6xxx in the honda chassis and you use 5356 filler, wouldnt that shoot down the theory that the frames are heat treated ? or do you believe the entire chassis is 7005/7003 ? amazing after 10+ years of people building these conversions there still is not a 100% answer what alloys are used

im not a welder or metallurgist but if anyone is, could they give a rational logical explanation why there would be 2 dissimilar alloys used because i sure as hell cant see the logic.

and another thing, TTM went to great lengths on his builds, wouldnt he know precisely what materials he was working with ? i seen him mention nothing of 7xxx series. he may be a con artist but he seemed to know more than most people about alloys, i cant see a expert just cobbing something together. or maybe he wasnt a expert and it was all a big hoax ?

[100hp honda]

Aluminum 6061 - 6063 - 6101 - 6201 -6151 - 6951 to 514 - 7005 - 7939 - 712
Use 5356 - 5183

when joining 7005 to 6061 you would use 5356 or 5183



Remember that the 5183 - 5356 -5556 filler alloys are non-heat treatable alloys which can undergo negative changes when subjected to heat treatment.

if you weld 7005 to 6061 and use 5356 or 5183 then heat treating is not a option.



if anyone believes that honda chassis have a mixture of 7xxx and 6xxx alloys, this basically says that theres no way the chassis are heat treated. unless im interpreting it wrong ? in my own opinion this further adds proof the whole chassis is the same alloy, whether its 6061 or 7005, or something even different altogether.

[nmdesertrider]

you would have a hard time convincing me that there is any way to heat treat 6061 that would make it as hard as the OEM cradle tubes

[100hp honda]

its possible the chassis is either 7003 or 7005. tons of pedal bikes are made from 7005 and aparently the honda gold wing uses atleast some 7003. i can honestly say ive never once seen any 7xxx series of sqaure tubing, must be secret stuff

http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2001-01-1884

[nmdesertrider]

http://www.fairing.com/bicycle_frame_de ... =ShapeTube

[gregrobo]

nice link didnt see the thickness would be nice if the 7xxx series shs came thicker

[100hp honda]

http://www.fairing.com/bicycle_frame_de ... =ShapeTube

i dont understand that site. do they have 1"x1" with 1/8" radius and .100-.125 thick ?

[nmdesertrider]

I am guessing that the 25x25/1.2, 1.4 stuff is what you want

[100hp honda]

site says everything is in metric. 25x25 would be close to 1"x1". but what does the 1.2 1.4 meen ? 1.2mm is way thinner than the oem tube.

these are bicycle tubes so i guess they would be alot thinner.

[nmdesertrider]

shit, metric brain fart. That's way too thin.

[bearorso]

I've always regarded Japanese alloy frames as being made of non heat treatable aluminium. It's the 'safest way' to proceed when working with them.

When the first alloy frames (of course, alloy swingarms appeared even earlier) came out - to the best of my dim dark memory, the GSXR400s (any Oz blokes remember Robbie Phillis' GSX1100 shoe horned into a GSXR400 chassis for the Swan Series? Talk about upspecing the engine!) were the first mass production alloy framed bikes to arrive in OZ - I wondered if /when we would see a lot of frame problems. But, giving thought to the major companies fear of liability, I thought that it would be done well/properly.

Time has proved that trusting naivety right. All things considered, I've seen bugger all problems with Japanese aluminium frames, even the early, small section GSXR1100 frames are still out there going well.

You will find on many frames different grades of alloy - even strange mixtures of heat treatable and non HT types. But , for the most part, they will be in, as much as possible, in the same series, eg - 7000.

A series of alloy , will have a multiplicity of grades within it, catering for forgings , castings, extrusions etc, etc. And for a wide variety of loads etc.

The major manufacturers will have proprietary alloy grades made for them - and metallurgists can create some amazing blends of alloys, in all sorts of non ferrous & ferrous metals.

There are alloys out there that even we who have made our living from fabrication and design would be stunned by.

7005 aluminium is THE workhorse material in Asia, it's used in the vast majority of applications, especially the cycling world. The big thing about it, and many non heat treatable alloys, are the savings in not having to go through the heat treatment process. It represents a massive saving in production costs - you just weld the sucker up, re-align the fabrication up if required, and it age hardens (actually, nearly all aluminium grades / series are age hardening, the extent of such being vast in range) back to it's original specs.

In my bicycle frame making, I have a lot of people coming to me to repair their frames. For the most part, I tell them no. Bicycle frames are made at such a level of minimalism, they are right on the edge of material limits at the upper level, so they definitely have a very finite life (aluminium in general has a very finite life, if it approaches it's design / materials limits, that is why MC frames are so substantial and so , relatively, heavy for what they are) and once such light gauge material starts cracking etc, you'll just keep on chasing other failures. I tell them, to thank the frame for not exploding, and hang it up as a souvenir. To often I've been at races, to only see blokes racing with dodgy repairs, or the same dodgily repaired frame sold onto someone else. A fellow who'd bought a repaired frame, that failed and seriously hurt him, tried to sue me as the previous owner had told him it had been repaired by Bear Bikes - it didn't get to far as I certainly had not repaired the thing. Record keeping and proprietary ID'ing jobs is a good thing to have!

As for a formerly much touted individual heat treating his frames - well , I think, with his record that any claims he made would be in doubt by now. Mind you, I'm not aware of the extent of his claims of heat treatment, it could well have been him just glorifying artificial age hardening his frames, and not solution heat treating it ( do that with many aluminium alloys and you can count your days as numbered). A 7000 series frame should, if done carefully, not suffer by the heat levels / times needed to 'age' a section of 6061 put in as frame rails / inserts, if indeed, that was done at all.

Cryzsurfer , I think, posted his test results / opinions quite a long time ago, and has restated it recently. He has stated he works in heat treating / metallurgy, and I believe him. As I've said, I've always regarded Japanese frames as being made in non heat treatable alloys - it's the safest way to deal with them.

As for the bicycle tubing available - certainly , don't go there!, Way too thin for frame rail usage. Mind you, the materials ( specifically steels) and butting / profiles are leading edge.I'm currently awaiting some very expensive Reynolds 953 ( a very trick grade of SS) tubing for my XC and 4X frames, and am trying to get the same grade in straight gauge tubing for MC projects. Last night I was welding .2mm thick 853 tubing at the seat tube/seat stay junctions of an XC frame - that makes for high stress levels in this old, half blind, unsteady blokes mind. A triple scotch made me relaxed enough to fire up the Miller And the precision fabrication levels / stds in top level bicycle frame manufacture make production motorcycle stds look pathetic. It can be very sobering to check the alignment of many MC frames............

[dannygraves]

I use 4340

[cryzsurfer]

I used 4043 on mine because I welded some of it at home on my Miller DC Invertor TIG machine (pure helium) that doesn't have AC. 5xxx filler sucks on DC I guess due to the magnesium content. I'm under the impression the square tubing is 6xxx series. I'll try to get a piece to work and get it zapped and post the content. Some alloys actually age harden in room temperature just sitting. I also run the heat treat shop here and 99% of the aluminum weldments don't get re heat treated due to problems encountered especially dimensionally. They generally over engineer by adding more gussets, thicker material, and increase the fillet weld size to counter loss of strength from the heat affected zone. I made sure to get 100% penetration on all of my butt welds and with the engine bolted in acting as stiffening I'm not worried about it failing. I just bought a brand new Miller Dynasty 350 amp for work and honestly it's the best welding machine I've ever used. I'd give my left nut for one at home.
Craigus

[dannygraves]

if I had a dynasty 350, I'd go out to my garage and fuck it once a day I'm pretty roosty does with his
4043 is what I meant, got alittle dyslexic

[bearorso]

Cryzsurfer,

The details your put in your post are well put - exactly my thoughts and how I have to make things at times. The 'rules' are far from followed slavishly . A good indication of how many things are done are the many adds for products /frames stating "made from 6061T6 heat treated tubing" - with no reference to actual post weld heat treatment - bicycle frame makers are famous for this one.

As I wrote , I'd not be surprised if you couldn't get an exact correlation on some of the material on the frames - I really think much of it will be a proprietary 'special blend' material, developed and made for Honda's use.

I know the Brits are really into 7020 - I've work with it a small amount and it's a fantastic material. Spondon, Harris, NWS , Kenny Roberts company, and a host of other specialists use it. With the majority of F1 tech being done in Britain, plus the huge amount of other leading edge engineering tech they do there (believe me , I hate to acknowledge the Poms skills and cleverness) they do some amazing stuff there.

You are now on my " I hate your guts list", both you and Roostious. Why? Because you have a Dynasty 350 - Bastards!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not that it's necessary , I've a pristine Miller Syncrowave 250 with an external Miller pulse unit ( mind you, I just realized its 20 years old now ), and if I had a D350 I'd have to take on unwanted work to justify it, but it would be cool to have one to play with.

[cryzsurfer]

Well, I just purchased in the last few months a brand new PTR 5 Axis 10KW Electron Beam Welding System that's amazing compared to my older units. Reaches high vacuum in a little over three minutes. Yea, the Dynasty is all contained in a sweet unit and I dig the Weldcraft torch and there's even a sweet droor on the bottom. I told everyone not to screw with it. I never warmed up to the Miller Aerowave I was using, but this thing is the shit. Yea, after we zapped the piece of the Y we couldn't find the exact alloy in the big blue book when we were going through the percentages , but he said it was definitely 7xxx. The dude is a brainiac and sharp in many things and every time he comes out and sees me working on a bike part or turbo part he gets a good laugh as I always say "it's part of my EB Welder that I'm fixing". My machine at home is a Miller XMT304 CCCV with foot control and Miller high frequency/gas unit. I traded a 92 CR500 for it and even had a wet rig hooked up to it but traded the water cooler and HW20 torch for some hot rod stuff. It's DC only which makes thin aluminum a bitch, so I usually tack the thinner stuff at home and sneak it to work to weld on my DYNASTY 350 I like hearing from other welder dudes so keep it coming.
Craigus