MPS - AGAIN

100hp honda · Post by **100hp honda** » February 11th, 2009, 4:24 pm

in my opinion, selling several hundred AF bikes a year world wide is a big dawg, considering how small the AF business is. as for why nobody has filled AJs shoes, if somebody had the financial means, time, tools and fabrication skills, i think it would be rather easy to make a name larger than S/H, once word got out you were building high qaulity conversions at a reasonable price and in a timely manner. heres my thinking why S/H is still in business:

1- they have no competition out there that can build AFs on a mass production scale
2- some guys want a turn key bike in 2 weeks but dont have the tools, time or skills to build their own

so yes in the AF world, S/H is the BIGGEST DAWG so to speak, but certainly not the BEST DAWG

MICK · Post by **MICK** » February 11th, 2009, 5:41 pm

I understand where you're coming from 100hp. But it could just as easily be you building 100-200 AFs a year. AJ isn't the chior boy some think he is. He works at a dealership same as anybody. He could stop producing AFs tomorrow and Honda would be all the happier. He doesn't get factory support. Kawasaki on the other hand AJ tells me has been very cooperative. But Honda could give a shit less. My Service Honda bike was literally built by a local Hammond, IN. dealership employee in his garage, from parts bought from work at dealer price. It isn't a Service Honda / Factory Honda project. There is no monopoly market here. Anybody could do this. Building 500AFs isn't AJ's job. It doesn't pay his bills. He's in charge of the online parts department. That's what he in fact does. 500AFs are in essence advertisement for their parts department. What seperates SH from TTM and MPS is that he puts his product out there. Advertisement. You all really give Service Honda way more credit towards being some mass 500AF production plant than it really is. It's a straight up mom and pop shop. Nobody's taken their place yet because they don't want to invest the time...that's all there is to it. You know it would be great for instance if Mike didn't actually have a real job building things for the gov and stuff, and could build AFs 100% of the time. With SHs motivation, he could swallow up the market...be the household name for instance. AJ wouldn't give a shit. He'd just sell more OEM parts to Mikes customers...

Post by **AlisoBob** » February 11th, 2009, 5:45 pm

MICK wrote:He'd just sell more OEM parts to Mikes customers...

Teem Trubble sells OEM cheaper than S/H

Exnav · Post by **Exnav** » February 11th, 2009, 5:51 pm

MICK wrote: AJ wouldn't give a shit. He'd just sell more OEM parts to Mikes customers...

I don't know Mick, AJ seems to have a little ego going for him when he gets smoked on here......don't we all.

100hp honda · Post by **100hp honda** » February 11th, 2009, 6:06 pm

i talked to a honda dealer in california the other day, he confirmed what i always thought- the reason i havent seen many cr250 made between '04-07 is because nobody was interested. everyone wanted the gay 4strokes. im not real happy with honda and their ways of thinking. when the cr5 motor goes extinct ill probly hang up my helmet

MICK · Post by **MICK** » February 11th, 2009, 6:13 pm

Exnav wrote:I don't know Mick, AJ seems to have a little ego going for him when he gets smoked on here......don't we all.

Yes we do. Isn't that the banned way?

If Mike sells OEM parts cheaper than SH than I guess there's nothing stopping him? Then it's entirely up to Mike whether or not he wants to be as involved in this community as SH. He's got the tools, the technical ability and apparently dealership backing as well. You guys speak to Mike more than I do...any thoughts then on why I'm not reading about TTM bikes in magazines? All he's gotta do is put himself out there...

Exnav · Post by **Exnav** » February 11th, 2009, 6:21 pm

I wonder what profit margin is in a AF for SH? 20, 30, 40% more or less?

What happens to the zero hour engines that get pulled out? Are they sold outright to the public or used for parts?

100hp honda · Post by **100hp honda** » February 11th, 2009, 6:26 pm

Exnav wrote: What happens to the zero hour engines that get pulled out? Are they sold outright to the public or used for parts?

theyre on ebay, ive seen them, probly some there right now. if i recall its about $2,200 for brandnew crf250

MICK · Post by **MICK** » February 11th, 2009, 6:28 pm

100hp honda wrote:i talked to a honda dealer in california the other day, he confirmed what i always thought- the reason i havent seen many cr250 made between '04-07 is because nobody was interested. everyone wanted the gay 4strokes. im not real happy with honda and their ways of thinking. when the cr5 motor goes extinct ill probly hang up my helmet

I sound like a broken record sometimes but...a close friend of mine operates and is one of the mechanics of a Honda/Kawasaki/Suzuki dealer (the only dealer) in my hometown. Honda as a company are a bunch of douch bags. I'll tell you they wanted to quite selling two strokes the day the CRF450 hit the floors. You know they got reprimanded for not giving the fourstrokes enough floor space! Honda wanted them to park the new two stroke models in the back with the used bikes! Honda is also not happy with them being a multi line dealer.
Anyways, yes SH sells the most 500AFs. But they aren't doing anything I couldn't be doing as well in Lewiston, ID. We got the welders, the local dealership support and the guys with the technical know how up there. But honestly nobody wants to build these because before too long, CR500s won't exist. Pstoffers says they shouldn't exist now, but the bottom line is that, in two more years there WON'T BE any CR500 motors left! Therefore these bikes will ultimately fade away into oblivion as they age and wear. SH has the bear on this market now, and they'll keep it till the day it dries up because nobody is going to put there eggs in a basket that is guaranteed to die in half a decade. It's been a good run while it lasted...

100hp honda · Post by **100hp honda** » February 11th, 2009, 6:35 pm

MICK wrote:
100hp honda wrote:i talked to a honda dealer in california the other day, he confirmed what i always thought- the reason i havent seen many cr250 made between '04-07 is because nobody was interested. everyone wanted the gay 4strokes. im not real happy with honda and their ways of thinking. when the cr5 motor goes extinct ill probly hang up my helmet
I sound like a broken record sometimes but...a close friend of mine operates and is one of the mechanics of a Honda/Kawasaki/Suzuki dealer (the only dealer) in my hometown. Honda as a company are a bunch of douch bags. I'll tell you they wanted to quite selling two strokes the day the CRF450 hit the floors. You know they got reprimanded for not giving the fourstrokes enough floor space! Honda wanted them to park the new two stroke models in the back with the used bikes! Honda is also not happy with them being a multi line dealer.
Anyways, yes SH sells the most 500AFs. But they aren't doing anything I couldn't be doing as well in Lewiston, ID. We got the welders, the local dealership support and the guys with the technical know how up there. But honestly nobody wants to build these because before too long, CR500s won't exist. Pstoffers says they shouldn't exist now, but the bottom line is that, in two more years there WON'T BE any CR500 motors left! Therefore these bikes will ultimately fade away into oblivion as they age and wear. SH has the bear on this market now, and they'll keep it till the day it dries up because nobody is going to put there eggs in a basket that is guaranteed to die in half a decade. It's been a good run while it lasted...

i thought i read their still making 250r qaud parts 20 years after the fact. obviously some parts are discontinued but maybe the vital engine components are still being produced

Post by **AlisoBob** » February 11th, 2009, 6:38 pm

Yea... too bad every classis Maico, Hodaka, Bultaco and Can Am is in the scrapyard now....

CR500's outnumber all these classics... combined.

MICK · Post by **MICK** » February 11th, 2009, 6:39 pm

Exnav wrote:I wonder what profit margin is in a AF for SH? 20, 30, 40% more or less?

It's jack shit is what it is. Honda has been selling the motors to them now as kit parts. Not as a whole unit. So what they sell the zero hour motors for doesn't cover the cost of all the parts they have to buy to put the damn 500 motor together. Not haveing any idea what ALL the costs are to produce a 500AF I can come up with about a 20% profit IF selling the donor motor is a straight trade in costs with the 500, which I know it isn't. So in actuality I believe it's sub 20...my guess would be about 10% maybe.

MICK · Post by **MICK** » February 11th, 2009, 6:47 pm

100hp honda wrote:i thought i read their still making 250r qaud parts 20 years after the fact. obviously some parts are discontinued but maybe the vital engine components are still being produced

Yes you're correct. And as Bob rolls his eyes

I'm talking about Honda. Neither Maico, Hodaka, Bultaco and Can Am had such a liberal, green piece, fucking tree hugging, anti-two stroke sentiment about their machines.

Of course it's my opinion, but it's one I share with many others atleast "somewhat" in the biz. And by somewhat I mean haveing been Honda dealers for decades. Honda is headed like a freight train to end two stroke production. Two years. That's my guess. Bob you'll be able to buy all the classic iron parts you want long after you can find a single Honda two stroke replacement. Hope I'm wrong...but seriously, I hate being right sometimes and shit ain't looking good at Honda here lately.

AUSSIECR500AF · Post by **AUSSIECR500AF** » February 12th, 2009, 3:19 am

Boys,

Based on all posts, all opinions, all FACTS, has anyone actually witnessed or has been "legally" served with the AF trademark right? This is NOT a post to defend, attack etc.......... I just want to know the truth. I respect AJ has a name, business and reputation to defend, after all, he does build a "QUALITY" machine we all love and admire, however, i want to put closeure to the "AF" trademark name. Does anyone have a finite answer, or, based on what I have read and experienced to date, are they JUST WORDS. This is not an attack, so no bitches welcome!

Exnav · Post by **Exnav** » February 12th, 2009, 7:04 am

Cue the AJ fly by in 3, 2, 1.

britincali · Post by **britincali** » February 12th, 2009, 7:51 am

Why is it this same bullshit surfaces about every 3 months?????

The whole AJ service honda trademark crap is like a turd that wont flush......

Can we drop it?

dannygraves · Post by **dannygraves** » February 12th, 2009, 9:15 am

wow, this thread got crazy!
There is a limited market for a/fs, if they sold like crazy everyone would build them, but a majority would rather get a brand new 450, thats the fact and that is why no A/F builder will ever make it big.

xtremeslide · Post by **xtremeslide** » February 12th, 2009, 9:43 am

dannygraves wrote:wow, this thread got crazy!
There is a limited market for a/fs, if they sold like crazy everyone would build them, but a majority would rather get a brand new 450, thats the fact and that is why no A/F builder will ever make it big.

That's why they are beginnig to do 250-300's conversions maybe the 500's ends in 10-5 years or maybe not, but with the 250-300 they'll could do something more

250-300's two stroke market is not dead

KTM,Husqvarna,gasgas,etc,etc...are making new models every year

and who knows if in a future AMA or other let the 4 stroke race with two
in the same class for riders out of cash

sure that Honda will not let his top riders ride a two stroke

Balaclava · Post by **Balaclava** » February 12th, 2009, 12:20 pm

Exnav wrote:
MICK wrote:I don't know Mick, AJ seems to have a little ego going for him when he gets smoked on here......don't we all.

100hp honda · Post by **100hp honda** » February 12th, 2009, 5:09 pm

AUSSIECR500AF wrote:Boys,

Based on all posts, all opinions, all FACTS, has anyone actually witnessed or has been "legally" served with the AF trademark right? This is NOT a post to defend, attack etc.......... I just want to know the truth. I respect AJ has a name, business and reputation to defend, after all, he does build a "QUALITY" machine we all love and admire, however, i want to put closeure to the "AF" trademark name. Does anyone have a finite answer, or, based on what I have read and experienced to date, are they JUST WORDS. This is not an attack, so no bitches welcome!

i been wondering the same thing for 2 years. has anyone confirmed 100% if S/H owns rights to the term AF ? ill never put AF stickers on my bike because the term AF doesnt mean anything to me, but ive always been curious

MICK · Post by **MICK** » February 12th, 2009, 5:32 pm

Exnav wrote:Cue the AJ fly by in 3, 2, 1.

...3/4, 1/2, 1/4

Post by **AlisoBob** » February 12th, 2009, 6:48 pm

100hp honda wrote:
i been wondering the same thing for 2 years. has anyone confirmed 100% if S/H owns rights to the term AF ? ill never put AF stickers on my bike because the term AF doesnt mean anything to me, but ive always been curious

Service Honda does not own legally the term "A/F".

Service Honda believes they have rights to it through established reoccurring usage.

I dont.....

Consider this.... Trademark rights can be lost through genericity. Sometimes, trademarks that WERE originally distinctive can become generic over time, thereby losing any trademark protection.

In the governments eyes, as upheld in several court cases, "A word will be considered generic when, in the minds of a substantial majority of the public, the word denotes a broad genus or type of product and not a specific source or manufacturer."

I believe the term " A/F" as used to describe a "A" luminum "F"rame motorcycle is generic.

If S/H called it a "Berm Buster", that isnt a generic name. That is a specific name of their own creation.

So, want real world examples? The term "thermos" has become a generic term and is no longer entitled to trademark protection. Although it once denoted a specific manufacturer, the term now stands for the general type of product used to store liquids.

Similarly, both "aspirin" and "cellophane tape" have been held to be generic. In deciding whether a term is generic, courts will often look to dictionary definitions, the use of the term in newspapers and magazines, and any evidence of attempts by the trademark owner to police or register its mark.

Service Honda is aware of the confusion, but has taken no steps to register the mark. In my eyes, thats abandonment.

If they really cared, they would register it.... plain and simple.

Balaclava · Post by **Balaclava** » February 12th, 2009, 11:00 pm

that's what i wanted to get out of someone...i never knew the exact info whether it was trademarked or not...now shit is cleared up...thank you

AUSSIECR500AF · Post by **AUSSIECR500AF** » February 13th, 2009, 2:34 am

Brilliant respone. Thank you for the clarification. For those that do not understant the reply

BannedCR500Riders.com

MPS - AGAIN