E85 alky conversion

[Ante]

Hi all,

I've posted the same question on the other board but though you guys might be able to help out filling some of the blanks. Anyways, I have an '97 that is no longer used for offroad driving. It's been converted to 17" wheels for Supermoto-fun and the stock wheels are only used during winter time running studded tires on froozen lakes. The question is the constant need for more power. I've decided it would be fun to convert the engine to use E85 fuel since it's easy to obtain where I live. I have some questions related to this. My mods-list will include carb, head/compression and timing/ignition.

Has anybody installed a large 48mm Lectron carb on a stock frame CR500? Does it physically fit w/o modifying the frame?

What compression the do the the alky-guys (methanol) use? I.e what bowl size should I aim for? What's the stock head cc?

The cool head offers a 66cc and a 63 cc dome insert and that could perhaps be a good starting point for further modifications. Does the cool head work well with increased compression, is the o-ring setup durable with increased comprrssion? I assume it's no problem machining the domes to increase compression?

Ignition, what is done to the timing running alky? I assume the timing needs to be advanced to taka advantage of the alky-fuel?

Anybody got experinece running E85 in the CR500?

Any input would be helpful.

Thanks

[dannygraves]

the rubber main seals will be a problem if you don't flush it with regular fuel after each run.
Lewisclan just built an alky bike, a lot of these questins would be fresh in his mind.

[lewisclan]

Hi all,

I've posted the same question on the other board but though you guys might be able to help out filling some of the blanks. Anyways, I have an '97 that is no longer used for offroad driving. It's been converted to 17" wheels for Supermoto-fun and the stock wheels are only used during winter time running studded tires on froozen lakes. The question is the constant need for more power. I've decided it would be fun to convert the engine to use E85 fuel since it's easy to obtain where I live. I have some questions related to this. My mods-list will include carb, head/compression and timing/ignition.

Has anybody installed a large 48mm Lectron carb on a stock frame CR500? Does it physically fit w/o modifying the frame?

I have a 44 without any problems but I have a differnt air ceaner set up the stock wont fit

What compression the do the the alky-guys (methanol) use? I.e what bowl size should I aim for? What's the stock head cc?

I have a custome made 14:1 alky head made for my cool head, I also have a custome made billit bowl for the carb.

The cool head offers a 66cc and a 63 cc dome insert and that could perhaps be a good starting point for further modifications. Does the cool head work well with increased compression, is the o-ring setup durable with increased comprrssion? I assume it's no problem machining the domes to increase compression?

Ignition, what is done to the timing running alky? I assume the timing needs to be advanced to taka advantage of the alky-fuel?

Anybody got experinece running E85 in the CR500?

Any input would be helpful.

Thanks

I really dont have any experince yet but you could read this http://www.bannedcr500riders.com/board/ ... php?t=1828

[Ante]

Thanks, some good info there!

What cc is the head? Did you order a special dome from cool head or did you machine a standard dome?
What pipe are you using? Any pics of the pipe?
What ignition are you using? Stock with advanced stator plate?

Thanks

[lewisclan]

Thanks, some good info there!

What cc is the head? Did you order a special dome from cool head or did you machine a standard dome?
I got a special one .What pipe are you using? Any pics of the pipe?
a custome GSS Race port pipe
What ignition are you using? Stock with advanced stator plate?
stock ing
Thanks

you can find GSS in the approved venders threads

[100hp honda]

dude, why even mess with e85 ? seriously. methanol would be the better way to go. both will require new carb, new head, both have to be purged but e85 will be less power. a guy would assume e85 would be a power increase over pump gas but i doubt its worth the trouble and money it would take to modify the bike. hell c12 i think would be 5% power over pump gas, i know e85 wouldnt be any more than 5%

[lewisclan]

I think I am running M5

[100hp honda]

I think I am running M5

i hear that stuff has special ingredients

[lewisclan]

it does but I heard that Packard dident like the M5

[100hp honda]

try the m1 next time and see if you like it. thats what im going to use

[Ante]

dude, why even mess with e85 ? seriously. methanol would be the better way to go. both will require new carb, new head, both have to be purged but e85 will be less power. a guy would assume e85 would be a power increase over pump gas but i doubt its worth the trouble and money it would take to modify the bike. hell c12 i think would be 5% power over pump gas, i know e85 wouldnt be any more than 5%

I did a quick search and found this on wikipedia:

"As a fuel methanol and ethanol both have advantages and disadvantages over fuels such as petrol and diesel. Both alcohols have a high octane rating, with ethanol at 129 RON, 102 MON, (which equates to 116 AKI) and methanol at 123 RON, 103 MON (which equates to 113 AKI) [1]. Ordinary European petrol is typically 95 RON, 85 MON, equal to 90 AKI. Note that AKI refers to 'Anti-Knock Index' which averages the RON and MON ratings (RON+MON)/2, and is used on U.S. gas station pumps"

and then "One liter of ethanol contain 21.1 MJ, a liter of methanol 15.8 MJ and a liter of gasoline approximatly 32.6 MJ."

Granted E85 is not 100% Ethanol, but I supose it's properties are similar, I can't see any disadvantages running E85 compared to pure methanol. Please enlighten me

[100hp honda]

dude, why even mess with e85 ? seriously. methanol would be the better way to go. both will require new carb, new head, both have to be purged but e85 will be less power. a guy would assume e85 would be a power increase over pump gas but i doubt its worth the trouble and money it would take to modify the bike. hell c12 i think would be 5% power over pump gas, i know e85 wouldnt be any more than 5%

I did a quick search and found this on wikipedia:

"As a fuel methanol and ethanol both have advantages and disadvantages over fuels such as petrol and diesel. Both alcohols have a high octane rating, with ethanol at 129 RON, 102 MON, (which equates to 116 AKI) and methanol at 123 RON, 103 MON (which equates to 113 AKI) [1]. Ordinary European petrol is typically 95 RON, 85 MON, equal to 90 AKI. Note that AKI refers to 'Anti-Knock Index' which averages the RON and MON ratings (RON+MON)/2, and is used on U.S. gas station pumps"

and then "One liter of ethanol contain 21.1 MJ, a liter of methanol 15.8 MJ and a liter of gasoline approximatly 32.6 MJ."

Granted E85 is not 100% Ethanol, but I supose it's properties are similar, I can't see any disadvantages running E85 compared to pure methanol. Please enlighten me

i dont have first hand experience in this subject other than what ive read. all i can say is there must be a reason the drag race guys use meth instead of e85. my guess is, a motor on meth has a higher HP output , which is what puts you in the winners circle . ill make some phone calls to people well experienced in the use of meth and findout exactly what the pros/cons are to both fuels

[Ante]

It would be intersting to get an answer with a bit more theoretical background explaining why it would be better . The octane rating seems to similar according to the info I found above. Energy content is more or less equal to fuel consumption, so that doesn't matter. Perhaps Methanol has some safety properties compared to Ethanol that makes it a good fuel for racing?

[100hp honda]

It would be intersting to get an answer with a bit more theoretical background explaining why it would be better . The octane rating seems to similar according to the info I found above. Energy content is more or less equal to fuel consumption, so that doesn't matter. Perhaps Methanol has some safety properties compared to Ethanol that makes it a good fuel for racing?

heres your info

http://www.raceone85.com/

the test showed .1 second and 2-3 mph faster over regular 110 race fuel. it doesnt have any comparisons to methanol but i know from dynos and talking with people on other forums, meth if tuned right is around 10% increase in power over gas. its all in the tuners hand when i say 10%, ive heard 10% from 100 knowledgable people that use it, so i take it as fact, you could also melt the piston in under 10seconds if you dont know what your doing

[M.F.D.B.]

E85 has 15% 87 octane fuel added to "denature" it. If its was left as 100% Ethanol it would be classified as "potable alcohol" and therefore be taxed TREMENDOUSLY by the ATF and you would have to have a permit just to poses it or you would be a "moon shiner".

All "alcohol" for racing is "methanol". Its "denatured" to make it poisonous to avoid the tax. There is NO hp difference. You can go to Walmart and buy "denatured alcohol" and you now have pretty pure "methanol".

The difference between race grade and paint thinner is simply that the race grade is "anhydrous" or 100% dry. That is why you see anyone who is knowledgable in alky using a hydrometer to test the quality of their motor "booz". Alcohol is hygroscopic and therefore attracts and readily absorbs water which is why it rusts everything it touches including your rings/bearings etc. It also attacts rubber so you should not leave it in your motor for BOTH reasons unless you find a source for silicone main seals which we have not been able to source.

The R/C engines I have mucho years experience in will rust SOLID over night in a humid environment unless you run them out of gas AND place some light oil (Marvel Mystery Oil is the greastest stuff on Earth BTW) in the intake and crank the motor a couple times to distribute the oil.

Alky is much cleaner burning then petrol and the motor will run cooler at the same time as producing more power. E85 is also MAGNITUDES cheaper then race grade booz and the 15% gas in it helps keep it from "wetting".

[Ante]

As long as the octane rate is similar i assume similar way of tuning goes for both fules. Less volumeflow is needed for ethanol since it has a higher energy cintent, but that is simple a question on how you tune it. Perhaps the burn rate differs between them?

Anyway, I could still use some input on compression and timing. Can anybode running meth give me some indication on what dome volume to use?

Can anybody post a pic of the cool head? How is the dome attached to the "head" part? I.e can the domes be machined down to create a higher compression an still fit in the head?

Timing, any rought indication on what is done to the timing on meth conversion?

Last question, what exhaust temp should I aim for?

If you feel that these questions are "race-secrets" I understand, I'm not looking for a recipie, just some good starting points to work from. Also I understand timing and compression is dependent of many things like port timing, pipe design, jetting and so on. But once again, just some indications in the right direction would be helpful.

Btw, here's a pic of the bike:

[100hp honda]

As long as the octane rate is similar i assume similar way of tuning goes for both fules. Less volumeflow is needed for ethanol since it has a higher energy cintent, but that is simple a question on how you tune it. Perhaps the burn rate differs between them?

i think it would be wise to get professional assistance from engine builder that has knowledge in what your trying to do.

Anyway, I could still use some input on compression and timing. Can anybode running meth give me some indication on what dome volume to use?

seems like the other website i posted says the timing stays close to what gas is. dome specifics and timing will be dictated alot by how the whole motor is going to be setup and what its used for and port timing and pipe play a big part. for example: lewisclan is running similiar fuel to what i will be using but i know already our motors are completly different in almost every way. my port job, carb, ignition, dome and pipe are not even close to the same as lewisclans....as you can see theres many combinations that will work but you need to have professional assistance to help set it up for you specifics

Can anybody post a pic of the cool head? How is the dome attached to the "head" part? I.e can the domes be machined down to create a higher compression an still fit in the head?

the dome has o-rings and stays in place once its torqued down. no the domes cant be machined "smaller", you would need to purchase a blank dome and have it cut to your specifics

Timing, any rought indication on what is done to the timing on meth conversion?

the timing is advanced with meth. but e85 might not require as much timing. its gonna be some trial and error brotha, we cant give you a magic number. start slightly advanced from stock and see how it runs then adjust it from there

Last question, what exhaust temp should I aim for?

search this site, it will tell you what egt they run for meth http://atvdragracers.com/forums/

If you feel that these questions are "race-secrets" I understand, I'm not looking for a recipie, just some good starting points to work from. Also I understand timing and compression is dependent of many things like port timing, pipe design, jetting and so on. But once again, just some indications in the right direction would be helpful.

i know what i plan to do wont work for you, but i have given you some guidance in hopefully the right direction. search the web and make some phone calls to help in your quest

on a side note: if e85 runs anything like meth then i dont see it working very good in supermotorad. go watch some youtube videos of 2strokes on meth and you will understand what i meen. because theres some much fuel going into the motor they need to be "cleaned out" and work best for drag racing application where you can hold the throttle wide open, anything less than wide open and they run like crap. infact lewisclan can tell you how meth works, so much fuel goes into the motor that raw unburnt fuel actually comes out the exhaust. maybe his timing wasnt advanced far enough to burn it all, im not sure. even if the timing is advanced far enough, i dont think it burns completlety anyways

[dannygraves]

pabst blue ribbon built your bike!?

[Wheelie-Gene]

Sweet lookin' mochine. Have any vids of the thing in action???

I built a turbo Camaro for a friend, he recently converted it to e85. He said it feels the same (it's crazy-fast under boost), but coolant temp is now way down. The next step in the process is to turn up the waste gates from 10psi to 15 and then play with timing. We're expecting at least 800hp. It's capable of hanging with 20psi, so that should be in the 1Khp.

I don't think there would be any gains of running e85 on a stock (semi-stock) 500, its compression is too low. Gains are made w/the increase in compression and advancement in timing. E85 is cheaper than racing gas, but you burn more of it. I read an article (somewhere) on rejetting for e85, seems that you need 30/40% (or more) fuel delivery vs gasoline. It burns cleaner/cooler and is less prone to detonation, which is a good thing....but....has anyone had detonation probs w/a 500? Though I can see a benefit w/cooler operating temps.

One question I have is: Say you convert to the new gas....to get maximum efficiency you'll need to boost compression (by 20%???) and advance the timing. People already complain about having to kick a stock 500. Will you be able to kick it w/the high compression???

Get a spare carb and up the jetting, put some e-gas in it and see what it does. If you think there's room for potential then start tuning on it. Only sure way to know is go out and try it.

God knows I've had more than my share of stupid shit, at least I tried. I've never grenaded any engines, so I can say I have no regrets.