Nicasil plating....

4Z · Post by 4Z » February 18th, 2008, 10:40 pm

Did a search but didn't come up with what I was looking for
Do any of you guys nicasil your jugs? Outside of the obvious, like cost and the advantages of plating, pros and cons?
Toying with plating mine. Tell me if I am off my rocker.

TIA

Post by **AlisoBob** » February 18th, 2008, 11:52 pm

Slow old Fart · Post by **Slow old Fart** » February 19th, 2008, 6:25 am

You can run tighter tolerances because the aluminum liner have same exspansion as piston,it deals with heat better so the bike runs cooler.

Top ends should last longer and be quiter, I hear it can make more power because of friction but have never seen a dyno to back it up.

All in all lots of advanatages but you cannot bore so for the guy like me who likes to tear his stuff up it has some disadvatages.

dannygraves · Post by **dannygraves** » February 19th, 2008, 7:16 am

DeWayne does aluminum sleaves plated on all the 500s he works on. I've heard of guys plating the iron sleave at the last bore to get a lot more time out of it too. all in all its good, with in my opinion the only down side being cost.

Post by **AlisoBob** » February 19th, 2008, 7:46 am

Plating the steel sleeve is was I was talking about.

If you have spent some $$ on porting, and like the results... Plating the sleeve will protect your investment, make some power, and extend the time between rebuilds.

Slow old Fart · Post by **Slow old Fart** » February 19th, 2008, 8:26 am

AlisoBob wrote:Plating the steel sleeve is was I was talking about.

If you have spent some $$ on porting, and like the results... Plating the sleeve will protect your investment, make some power, and extend the time between rebuilds.

But then you do not get the advantages of the motor running cooler that a aluminum liner offers.

The drag guy's do not like them because if you blow the motor you just bore on a nik you do not have that option. To do a plate over the steel liner is not that exspensive but to do a new aluminum liner like Dwayne the stud Jones does it is exspensive as hell.

For what they want to do a aluma liner you can almost buy a whole saber tooth cylinder and for most apps the stock one is fine. I can see if you are doing desert runs at high spped or on the road with it tagged but as I stated a saber cylinder is only a little more than the nik mod you just have to figure out how to use it to make a real 500 the GP road race boy's would have been proud of..

lewisclan · Post by **lewisclan** » February 19th, 2008, 9:00 am

Looks like I will be looking into this, Scott did you get this set up yet?
Ive got 1 set up Id like to get plated

dannygraves · Post by **dannygraves** » February 19th, 2008, 9:06 am

will the saber jug bolt on a 500 bottom end, I thought they only built them to fit on a trx250 bottom end. if they do bolt on a 500 bottom, that would be one sick bolt-on

Slow old Fart · Post by **Slow old Fart** » February 19th, 2008, 9:21 am

dannygraves wrote:will the saber jug bolt on a 500 bottom end, I thought they only built them to fit on a trx250 bottom end. if they do bolt on a 500 bottom, that would be one sick bolt-on

that is the thing you have got to do some machine work to make it fit. A builder called mcoy who is on planet sand is working on a 590cc sbaer tooth 500 for a CR 500 bottom. if I were building a super CR 500 motard this would be it. everything else is amatuer in comparison and for the money the Saber is pretty affordable and no other single motor can come close. That TRX Saber on the dyno would run 9's in a bike chasses with very little set up. BAD ASS!!!!!!

dannygraves · Post by **dannygraves** » February 19th, 2008, 9:25 am

I wonder how much work it would be to fit a trx bottomend in an AF chassis.... 6 speeds, lighting coil.....hhhmmmm

Post by **AlisoBob** » February 19th, 2008, 10:16 am

Slow old Fart wrote:.... to do a new aluminum liner like Dwayne the stud Jones does it is exspensive as hell.

We are talking weekend "play riding"..... not PRO shit.

Plating a stock steel sleeve is a cost effective way to go. The jug ( in theory) would last forever.

Post by **AlisoBob** » February 19th, 2008, 10:17 am

dannygraves wrote:I wonder how much work it would be to fit a trx bottomend in an AF chassis.... 6 speeds, lighting coil.....hhhmmmm

Slow old Fart · Post by **Slow old Fart** » February 19th, 2008, 11:56 am

dannygraves wrote:I wonder how much work it would be to fit a trx bottomend in an AF chassis.... 6 speeds, lighting coil.....hhhmmmm

it can be done with no problem but i do not like the fact it is heavier than a 500 motor and the trans is weaker.the Mcoy should be the chit but the Cr 500 does not have counter balancer and the vibes would be unknown let mcoy figure it out. somebody should call him , I already pestered him once. It may be finished !

Slow old Fart · Post by **Slow old Fart** » February 19th, 2008, 11:59 am

AlisoBob wrote:
Slow old Fart wrote:.... to do a new aluminum liner like Dwayne the stud Jones does it is exspensive as hell.

We are talking weekend "play riding"..... not PRO shit.

Plating a stock steel sleeve is a cost effective way to go. The jug ( in theory) would last forever.

Dwayne says it is a big improvment he also says he's got a couple factory titanium cranks,that would be the bomb in a Saber! Not just the rod the whole thing is made out of titanium. REAL LIGHT. that thing should turn serious rev for a 500 single! Big HP number.

Uzi · Post by **Uzi** » February 19th, 2008, 12:48 pm

I also believe that plating the stock iron sleeve is the way to go for the average rider. I posted about this awhile as I have a cylinder ported by Eric Gorr that is on its last bore. I think I'll be going through US chrome and they quoted me about $300 to plated over the stock sleeve with NICOM.

You might look into NICOM if you going to spend the money it supposedly has even better wear and friction reducing properties than nikasil. The price difference between the two was only about 30 dollars. Also it probably wouldn't hurt to find a US Chrome dealer in your area as they usually get a little break on the pricing and shipping by dealing in higher volumes than you just sending them your one cylinder from your home address. It looked like I would save at least $40-$50 by letting my local shop send in the cylinder over sending it myself.

Let us know how it turns out if you do it. I'm not 100% set on this yet only because I'm not exactly sure what to tell them to set the piston to cylinder wall clearance at. It says right on the website that you can reduce tolerances by going with the plating and there by reduce your blow-by but I can seem to find anyone that know what the exact measurements are as far as reducing the clearance.

If anyone has any experience on this or is running a plated cylinder post up and tell us your specs it would be nice to hear what others are doing or have done.

Slow old Fart · Post by **Slow old Fart** » February 19th, 2008, 1:01 pm

[quote="Uzi"]I also believe that plating the stock iron sleeve is the way to go for the average rider. I posted about this awhile as I have a cylinder ported by Eric Gorr that is on its last bore. I think I'll be going through US chrome and they quoted me about $300 to plated over the stock sleeve with NICOM.

You might look into NICOM if you going to spend the money it supposedly has even better wear and friction reducing properties than nikasil. The price difference between the two was only about 30 dollars. Also it probably wouldn't hurt to find a US Chrome dealer in your area as they usually get a little break on the pricing and shipping by dealing in higher volumes than you just sending them your one cylinder from your home address. It looked like I would save at least $40-$50 by letting my local shop send in the cylinder over sending it myself.

I would not even attempt o a run a Wiseco less than 4 thousands on any steel set up. I do not see where whatever you lay down on top is going to make a difference the steel will still have a different exspansion over the aluminum on a alumminum sleeve you can run as close as 2 to 2.5 thousands from what I have been told and the motor rattles less over steel liner at 4

Uzi · Post by **Uzi** » February 19th, 2008, 3:32 pm

Slow old Fart wrote: I would not even attempt o a run a Wiseco less than 4 thousands on any steel set up. I do not see where whatever you lay down on top is going to make a difference the steel will still have a different exspansion over the aluminum on a alumminum sleeve you can run as close as 2 to 2.5 thousands from what I have been told and the motor rattles less over steel liner at 4

I think Rosco-peeko here on the site is running a wiseco at less than that in a regular cast sleeve and getting along alright. So I guess my next question is would you be required to run only one type of piston? (either cast or forged)
If thats the case how do people get away with switching from the stock cast pistons to forged wisecos in plated cylinders on 250's?

Does wiseco take this into account when they make their piston to be run in a plated cylinder. I would think this would cause problems in the 500's as they have never come factory with a plated cylinder(at least CR's I know that KX500's had plated bores)

Also what about rings? Would the rings that come with the piston kits that are designed to run on cast iron cylinder walls work with the plated cylinder. I know that on the wiseco instructions that specifically say not for us in a chromed bore.

Post by **AlisoBob** » February 19th, 2008, 3:41 pm

A "Rosco Built" ,tight clearanced Weisco motor that I know of just squeeked...

I think .004" is the way to fly.

Slow old Fart · Post by **Slow old Fart** » February 19th, 2008, 4:31 pm

Ya they take that into consideration when they build a piston for a hard style bore hole. If you ever notice a wiseco alot of the time makes a little more racket than a cast because they exspand more so they make them a little looser to try and keep them from seizing. I like wiseco but I never do a 3.5 tolerance like they recommend I always do a minumum of 4 and if it is a race application 5 thousands of a inch.

I have seized to many following their instructions. GOT TIRED OF IT. If you only get on it for 10 seconds at a time it will work other than that it will seize with a load on it and break in is way to long at 3.5 but I am over 300 pounds with my gear on in sugar sand so the motor is loaded to the hill .

Lighter guys do not have this problem and can get away with 3.5 to 4 or slow guy's like Bob!

Uzi · Post by **Uzi** » February 19th, 2008, 5:56 pm

AlisoBob wrote:A "Rosco Built" ,tight clearanced Weisco motor that I know of just squeeked...

I think .004" is the way to fly.

Even in a plated cylinder?
What if you were going to run a cast piston? Would you run the same piston clearance that you would in a cast iron sleeve?

Every Wiseco I've seen was sized just slighty less that the actual bore size for that piston so that you can in theory can bore the jug to exactly 90mm for a 1mm over piston and you should have the correct piston to cylinder wall clearance. We always mic'd the piston anyways before boring and used that measurement to determine the clearance.

So in theory if you where on your last bore you would have the bore plated to exactly 91mm if you want to run wiseco's is this what you guys would do or would you have it plated slightly tighter or looser?

Sorry to have sort of hijacked your thread 4Z hopefully this info can help you too.

Slow old Fart · Post by **Slow old Fart** » February 19th, 2008, 6:08 pm

Uzi wrote:
AlisoBob wrote:A "Rosco Built" ,tight clearanced Weisco motor that I know of just squeeked...

I think .004" is the way to fly.
Even in a plated cylinder?
What if you were going to run a cast piston? Would you run the same piston clearance that you would in a cast iron sleeve?

Every Wiseco I've seen was sized just slighty less that the actual bore size for that piston so that you can in theory can bore the jug to exactly 90mm for a 1mm over piston and you should have the correct piston to cylinder wall clearance. We always mic'd the piston anyways before boring and used that measurement to determine the clearance.

So in theory if you where on your last bore you would have the bore plated to exactly 91mm if you want to run wiseco's is this what you guys would do or would you have it plated slightly tighter or looser?

Sorry to have sort of hijacked your thread 4Z hopefully this info can help you too.

Talk to a professional who does this for a living, I am just running my pie hole. What is a pie hole anyway?

Uzi · Post by **Uzi** » February 19th, 2008, 6:19 pm

Slow old Fart wrote:Talk to a professional who does this for a living, I am just running my pie hole. What is a pie hole anyway?

Well I would consider this site to have more professional CR500 types than any where close to me. A shop here locally is a US chrome rep and I have a motorcycle, ATV, PWC degree but I can't seem find anyone who has run a plated cylinder or knows what specs to set one up with. From what I under stand US chrome asks you to specify the clearance for the piston you will be running. This shop I was at hadn't seen a CR 500 in over 7 years and I have only personally seen 1 500 that wasn't mine here in Nebraska.

I guess I could PM Mr.258 on the other site he had a NICOM cylinder on his now sold SH

pstoffers · Post by **pstoffers** » February 19th, 2008, 6:21 pm

AlisoBob wrote:A "Rosco Built" ,tight clearanced Weisco motor that I know of just squeeked...

I think .004" is the way to fly.

I run weisco's at .003 all the time

I allso run them at .005

Exnav · Post by **Exnav** » February 19th, 2008, 6:31 pm

I do some work for Mahle Motorsports and we tell builders what to set the piston to wall clearance at when using our pistons.

If you really want to know; call the company who makes the piston for the recommendation. I guarantee one of their application engineers has the answer to this for you.

Plus....................the US Chrome company you refer to is a distributor for Wiseco and JE. Someone there should give you an answer.
http://www.finishing.com/Shops/uschromewi.shtml

Post by **AlisoBob** » February 19th, 2008, 7:03 pm

Slow old Fart wrote:If you only get on it for 10 seconds at a time it will work other than that it will seize with a load on it

Thats what happened to my Bro.....

BannedCR500Riders.com

Nicasil plating....

Nicasil plating....