2 Strokes - Finally Something Is Happening.

All Engine, Clutch, Chains, and Sprockets Stuff Here.
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bearorso
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2 Strokes - Finally Something Is Happening.

Post by bearorso »

This may have already been put up somewhere on the site.

2ts, one in particular, are getting a bit of attention at EICMA.

Go searching, you'll find a lot of info.

Here's pictures of the Ossa. Pretty much every damned thing I want from a 2 stroke. Twin Injectors on these, the trials bike has just the case injector. Calling it DFI is not, by established norms, correct, but, the 2nd injector in the side of the cylinder, aimed Up, into the combustion chamber, I'd not argue as not being 'direct' injection. Athena's set up, too.

I'd be very interested to see the shape of the combustion chamber (of both the Ossa and Athena's set up). I'm also wondering if the Athena might use a purging / air 'dam' charge through the injector / or an air port, prior to the injector delivering the 'fuel' charge. Less need for high pressures, as in 'in head' injection, and, perhaps, a hell of a lot simpler. I've always said that there is more than just 'in head' DFI that can be used to give the cleanliness , and fuel efficiency 2ts need to achieve to stay around. Honda had the AR solution almost 20 years ago, the pricks. Better still, to Re- Introduce some sanity into ICE power plant usage, and KICK THE CRAP out of the 'all 4t , all the time' road ICE power plants have idiotically gone down. In nearly every form of ICE usage.

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Airbox in tank , up high. Tank all the way down to the frame rails, (see it in the close up pic - it goes through the forward engine case / frame mounts) fuel carried ultra low - I see No Need to touch the tank for virtually Any work on the bike. The spark plug removal ?- shit it in, just a nice ratchet plug spanner, and no problems at all. The two injectors are Right There (see the close up pic again) to lay your hands on. Top end - seat off / pipe off, or, Better, simply removing the subframe /pipe off in one unit. Top end, right below you (tilting back). Perhaps having to remove the shock - 2 bolts. Different linkage, but a well centred, accessible shock, and the linkage can be made to do any damn thing you want. 'Conventional' linkage is just that - it's Nothing special.It has become what it generally is because of space limitations. No more smashed pipes, especially if they / an owner does a cover on the LH side. Small front sprocket ? Yes, that's an 11 - there's plenty of room for bigger, and the small size ay be part of an engineers take on reducing the drive trains influence on sispension action. A Cassette Gearbox - change ratios in under an hour, if you are competent. Scheduled for production in 2013 - but I'd say demand will bring it forward . The Trials bikes came out 'on time', if even, slightly earlier than first announced. I've heard No problems heard with the Ossa EFI - sure you'll find dirty injectors / typical electrical problems that any bike can have, if you are in need to be a wanker, and find 'problems, but I see plenty of people with carb problems, etc, on all sorts of bikes. With EFI / DFI, we enter the age of multiple fuel filtering - manufacturers shouldn't leave us to perfect it, but, most haven't learnt tp adequately grease bearings........

The Athena - the vids have been out for a while. The engine shown is apparently a Minarelli 50cc bottom end - Who Gives A Fuck - it's a 2 stroke (and That's the production market they can apply Athena's Thoroughly Patented design to, by the Millions) Why make a bloody 4t scooter / commuter (THE World market) engine when you can make a simple 2t that's clean, fuel efficient, And shows up the 4ts for the gutless engines they are?
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That's Jan Witteveen in the dark jacket - one of the Great MC engine specialists, especially when it comes to 2ts.

These CG pics are of Jotagas' 250 / 300 engine - fairly conventional, but with an ES that is Not an add on, and a high crank set up, that most miss. It's at the show in Bimota's Enduro bike - it's been written by some the engine is Bimota's - whose it really is, I don't give a fuck - it's another , new 2t power plant. Jotagas have shown their Trials bike (different engine, theirs ?), and will show their version of the Enduro Bike this month, after the show. CG / design images from their site, (up far ahead of any Biota info I have found) show the frame to be pretty much the same as the Bimota.

If you have interest in 2ts apart from our old Dinosaurs (said with much love, guys) you should search out EICMA. Plenty of trick Road Bikes, even some E Bikes that are becoming more like real motorcycles, and less like glorified MTBs, and Geek Designers wet dreams.

KTM have their DFI ready for when They Have to produce them to allow continued meeting of regulations, so 2ts are legal for road use. Husky / BMW have stated they Will Not stop making 2ts, they are developing New 2 strokes. Thank you KTM, for so pissing off BMW, that BMW, bought Husky - it's the best things the Austrians have (to the Germans, and for the rest of the motorcycle world) done in years.

The Huge amount of interest in 2ts generated by the Ossa, Athena, and other 2ts, may force KTM / BMW to Not wait for legislation to force their hand.

Things are Changing, People. And for the better.
Last edited by bearorso on November 12th, 2011, 6:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
scooter5002
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Post by scooter5002 »

I rode the 09 WR250 Husky the other day at the local dealer. Just an AWESOME bike! Linear power, strong right off the hop. $4500 plus tax. SMOKIN' DEAL! The best part is it probably has an hours time on it, if that. There are ZERO boot marks on either ign or clutch case covers. So close to buying that thing. What the Japs haven't figured out yet, or more likely don't care about, is that the 2-stroke market is alive and well. If some mfgs will put R and D into the concept, they're the stupid ones making bad corporate decisions and spending money foolishly? Not fuckin' likely! The Japs are only concerned with one thing. Their bottom line.
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bearorso
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Post by bearorso »

scooter5002 wrote:I rode the 09 WR250 Husky the other day at the local dealer. Just an AWESOME bike! Linear power, strong right off the hop. $4500 plus tax. SMOKIN' DEAL! The best part is it probably has an hours time on it, if that. There are ZERO boot marks on either ign or clutch case covers. So close to buying that thing. What the Japs haven't figured out yet, or more likely don't care about, is that the 2-stroke market is alive and well. If some mfgs will put R and D into the concept, they're the stupid ones making bad corporate decisions and spending money foolishly? Not fuckin' likely! The Japs are only concerned with one thing. Their bottom line.
And the thing is, that's an ancient engine design as well . They are clearing the decks / using up the parts / tooling etc up as much as possible on the 'old' 2ts (just like KTM - from a business stand point, milking your old designs for all they are worth is sound business sense). As are the current KTM 2 engine modules - they date from the late 90s - how many current model 4ts could take the top ends and crank from late 90s 4ts, As the 250 / 300s can with KTM 360 /380 parts......?

Husky Will have new, modern 2ts coming , interviews with top BMW men have made that clear - they Won't leave such a market to KTM, and others. They want to have KTMs guts for garters :twisted: - KTM fucked with a sleeping giant when they declared they would surpass BMW (Never forget the BMW car empire that's behind them), and went into the big road bike market.

Let the Japanese companies, sink into the mire of 'all 4t, all the time', if they choose to stay with their heads up their arses. Yamaha, may have the sense to bring out their own New 2ts - they do have DFI / EFI 2t outboards, as well as all their 4ts. And they have been the innovators of the Japs - Reed valve fitment, modern port scavenging, production LTR back ends, the YZFs, and, at least, they have kept making the 125 and 250 2ts (whilst upping the price for Big profits on them). They could drop a bombshell like they did with the YZ400F, but with 2ts, again. At least they are the most likely to, of the Japanese manufacturers.
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freeride588
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Post by freeride588 »

Good article bearorso thanks. hopefully times are changing
Kevin
100hp honda
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Post by 100hp honda »

if they keep it simple as possible and trouble free it should do well. computers, electric pumps, injectors etc etc can spell disaster if you dont have your shit together. alot of people took the bait with the ktm 350 and alot of them are pissed off because all that new technology aint working real good. ill stay with the old dinosaurs for now. maybe 5 years they get this crap figured out and ill want a new one. still i doubt it though. i dont see anybody making over a 300cc 2t bike
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bearorso
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Post by bearorso »

100hp honda wrote:if they keep it simple as possible and trouble free it should do well. computers, electric pumps, injectors etc etc can spell disaster if you dont have your shit together. alot of people took the bait with the ktm 350 and alot of them are pissed off because all that new technology aint working real good. ill stay with the old dinosaurs for now. maybe 5 years they get this crap figured out and ill want a new one. still i doubt it though. i dont see anybody making over a 300cc 2t bike
It's about Keeping 2 strokes around, without having to only ride Dinosaurs. I love my Dinosaur, but I want a Modern, 2t, as well. Not just a slightly over bored, nearly 2 decade old design, like the KTM 300 is.

And I want the option of buying a still comparatively simple, fast, light, clean and non fuel guzzling 2t, Super Sports, or Super Bike, 2 stroke, on the road, instead of nothing but bloody 4 strokes. That's what modern 2ts will lead to.

Anyone here, who doesn't want that option??????????????

Yes, whilst the rules that don't allow 2ts to compete (in the Major Series ) at equal capacity, we might be stuck with slightly over bored 250s.

I'm not sure if the over 250 (292??) to 500cc 2t / 250 to 650cc 4t rule still applies to MX3 in Europe (MX3 should become 125 / 2t or 4t - anyone care to ride an 18,000 rpm 125 4t? :lol: - you'll then Really know about a narrow power band) MX2 should be 250s, 2t or 4t. MX1 ? - bugger the 450cc 4t Max. - make it say, 350, to count out over bored 250s, as they did, in the 60s, to stop 251cc 2ts destroying the 4ts - to Any damned size you want. Not for, specifically, 500 2ts - 400cc modern 2ts would be more than enough - but if a company wanted to make a 500 + cc Anything, I'd be happy for it to be allowed to take a tilt at MX1 / Premier class racing. I'd love to see big, minimalistic, grunty, 3spd 4ts, like the CCMs I grew up with, but, modern , of course. Modern can still mean push rods, by the way, because a big , genuinely torquey 4t, would not need revs, like current 4ts use, Plus, it would lower the engine height, and engine centre of gravity, with a cam down low, in the cases. With 4ts, it was supposed to be 451cc? plus 4ts, but now they let 350 KTMs in MX3. Jussi Laansoo, for one, raced a 350 in MX3 this year.

I'm also not sure if Over 292cc 2ts are allowed in E3 in WEC/ EWC. The 488cc 4t minimum has obviously been 'forgotten', with 471/ 481? cc Husky 511s, and other such things, out there.

I'm not scared of a bit more complexity, to have a modern bike, that I can use Anywhere. If I was / everyone was, we'd still be on air cooled, piston port, points ignition, Amal , Bing, or "Horror of Horrors", Jikov carbed , rigid rear end, shit boxes. You learn and adapt. And my hope, is that a lot of the idiot fuck ups with injectors / electrics, have been made on the 4ts. Shit, look at the amount of bitching and whinging about just carb jetting, any site has. I know, whatever modern bike I get, which will almost inevitably, have some sort of injector, I'll be flushing my new tank from new, and fitting a filler filter, a better filter before any fuel pump, and another filter, just before the injector(s). Manufacturers should sort it, but most of them can't yet adequately grease bearings / pivot points. Bike Prep - something I never leave to anyone, but myself.
100hp honda
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Post by 100hp honda »

i dont want to be stranded every ride because their new technology has glitches. happens all the time on the new 4t bikes. dinosaurs can practically go a life time with no break downs if they have a small amount of maintenance. piston seize seems to be 95% of the trouble on our bikes. 100% operator error and 100% preventable. when you add injectors, pumps, wires, computer modules thats more shit to go wrong. they will get it figured out some day but when is the question
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