Spark

CR500PHIL · Post by **CR500PHIL** » June 13th, 2011, 7:14 pm

I finally tried my bike this weekend - took about 25 kicks to start. The engine has a new top end now and a ton of compression. It ran perfect - idled fine, pulled hard with a nice brownish plug. When coming back to the truck (rolling down a hill) the bike just died and would not re-start. I am beginning to expect a spark issue. I know many things can cause this but have any of you ever since a CDI cause a weak spark? My engine is a 1985 - could I just change the entire ignition to a newer 1989 + ignition - my engine is a 1985. As well are the 1984 and 1985 CDIs interchangable?

britincali · Post by **britincali** » June 13th, 2011, 8:02 pm

Swap the plug.

plynn41 · Post by **plynn41** » June 13th, 2011, 8:08 pm

If your bike has a too rich pilot in it, you may have trouble starting it when the engine is hot unless you open the throttle some. I've learned this on my bike while I waited for the right pilot jets to come in the mail.

X2 on the changing the plug also.

2strokeforever · Post by **2strokeforever** » June 13th, 2011, 8:18 pm

if your pilot is way lean it wont start hot either
kill switch
plug cap
plug wire

could I just change the entire ignition to a newer 1989 + ignition

think 250

CR500PHIL · Post by **CR500PHIL** » June 14th, 2011, 3:59 am

It has a 65 pilot which is pretty rich but I have read that this was done to aid starting on the 85-86 engine. I considered swapping for smaller. The coil is un-verified so I think I will get a new AMR anyway. That being said when it did start it was flooded and required the throttle open so perhaps the 65 pilot is too rich. Do you think it would run perfectly when it started if the CDI was faulty - I almost think it would not. Likewise if the stator was bad wouldn't there be some indication in the performance once it was running?

plynn41 · Post by **plynn41** » June 14th, 2011, 6:16 am

My '85 engine has been running a 48 pilot, which I think is probably 2 sizes too rich. It never needs choke to start, and starts on the first kick if the temp is below 90*. On 98* days, I can't start it cold with the kicker if my life depended on it, but it will bump start. When the engine is hot, I have to open the throttle for it to start. I've got the air screw at 2 1/2 turns out. I've got #40, 42, and 45 jets ordered. It also fouls plugs every other ride. My main jet is fine, so the bike runs like a beast on the track.

Your jetting won't necessarily be the same because my bike has got some heavy duty porting.

CR500PHIL · Post by **CR500PHIL** » June 14th, 2011, 6:57 am

plynn41 wrote:My '85 engine has been running a 48 pilot, which I think is probably 2 sizes too rich. It never needs choke to start, and starts on the first kick if the temp is below 90*. On 98* days, I can't start it cold with the kicker if my life depended on it, but it will bump start. When the engine is hot, I have to open the throttle for it to start. I've got the air screw at 2 1/2 turns out. I've got #40, 42, and 45 jets ordered. It also fouls plugs every other ride. My main jet is fine, so the bike runs like a beast on the track.

Your jetting won't necessarily be the same because my bike has got some heavy duty porting.

When I tried my bike it was perhaps 50 degrees. The funny thing is all signs point to perfect jetting - perfect idle with PJ 38 carb, nice brownish plug. As well the bike does not oil foul plugs. the power delivery is very crisp and there is no surge on decelleration. Perhaps the pilot is just a bit rich - I have a 55 home I will try and try the air screw out a little more - had at two turns. I have a newer intake with boyesen super stock reeds and an FMF Gnarly with power core 2 silencer. The bike has new vertex at 90mm. I think I need to verify the electrical connections again like others have suggested as well.

CR500PHIL · Post by **CR500PHIL** » June 14th, 2011, 7:47 am

I assume all the coils are the same - I am using a 1997 CR500 coil with the original 1985 electronics.

hoofarted · Post by **hoofarted** » June 15th, 2011, 6:05 am

Yeah all coils are about the same for the most part.

Oh...250 ignition components = Winning! Easier starts, really wakes it up!

CR500PHIL · Post by **CR500PHIL** » June 15th, 2011, 8:56 am

hoofarted wrote:Yeah all coils are about the same for the most part.

Oh...250 ignition components = Winning! Easier starts, really wakes it up!

Ok now I want a new ignition anyway - thanks a lot.

I hear 1993 - 1996 CR250 ignitions are the easiest to install. Is timing a big deal - I mean is there much adjustment to do after it is installed? I have a 1999 CR250 CDI kicking around - I wonder if they are the same as the 1996.

hoofarted · Post by **hoofarted** » June 15th, 2011, 9:39 am

CR500PHIL wrote:
hoofarted wrote:Yeah all coils are about the same for the most part.

Oh...250 ignition components = Winning! Easier starts, really wakes it up!
Ok now I want a new ignition anyway - thanks a lot. I hear 1993 - 1996 CR250 ignitions are the easiest to install. Is timing a big deal - I mean is there much adjustment to do after it is installed? I have a 1999 CR250 CDI kicking around - I wonder if they are the same as the 1996.

I run a 93 - works good for me. 97+ went digital I think and more mods are needed to mount stator plate, and remove power jet circuitry, etc. Timing is pretty easy also as the the 93-96 is a direct drop in. If ya search, you'll see that there are quite a few threads here on this topic. You wont be disappointed!

quick eBay search - everything you need for under $200

don't waste your $ on AMR coils BTW.

$100 95 Stator/Flywheel
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/95-honda ... ccessories

$25 Coil:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/IGNITION ... ccessories

$50 CDI:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1994-Hon ... ccessories

freeride588 · Post by **freeride588** » June 15th, 2011, 4:14 pm

Hoofarted did you use the coil off your gen 2 or the 93 and are they the same. Thanks.

britincali · Post by **britincali** » June 15th, 2011, 7:12 pm

85 has a diff stator to all other years.

hoofarted · Post by **hoofarted** » June 16th, 2011, 6:08 am

freeride588 wrote:Hoofarted did you use the coil off your gen 2 or the 93 and are they the same. Thanks.

I used the 250 coil from my gen2.

britincali wrote:85 has a diff stator to all other years.

Brit - so what needs to be done to the stator plate?

CR500PHIL · Post by **CR500PHIL** » June 16th, 2011, 6:42 am

Thanks guys I am definitely considering going that route. Even if I buy just a coil for now (if mine proves faulty) I will buy the CR 250 one so I can begin working towards the CR 250 ignition. I am currently rebuilding my cottage and have spent a pile on this bike so far this year so this bites into my bike fund a little. I figure I could buy the coil, then the CDI and then the stator and by the fall I can convert to the new ignition. In the short term I will get a new plug cap and wire and replace my 65 pilot jet with the 55 I have a try that. Thankfully I have a few pilot jets on hand from past projects. If this bike proves to be a keeper my fall upgrades include:

- Replace starter gear so newer kicker will not hit pipe
- Replace Ignition
- Replace Clutch inner and outter cover

CR500PHIL · Post by **CR500PHIL** » August 11th, 2011, 2:44 pm

hoofarted wrote:Yeah all coils are about the same for the most part.

Oh...250 ignition components = Winning! Easier starts, really wakes it up!

I got my 250 ignition on - 20 kicks to get it going the first time, warmed it up, idled perfect, shut it off,kicked 20 more gave up without it going.

Rosco-Peeko · Post by **Rosco-Peeko** » August 12th, 2011, 7:41 pm

Out of curiosity, did you disconnect the kill switch? I built a 93 CR500 and it ran great....stop to take a break and you were lucky to get it started again. Disconnected the kill switch and it ran fine, it was intermittent. I am sure heat affected it like it does with most electrical components.

How 'bout them reeds? Not to be insulting, I know you did a rebuild, If they are warped or cracked that will cause issues also.

Have you completely disassembled your carb and douched it out with Chem-Tool? Then used compressed air to blow it out? That helps sometimes. That fuel inlet needle off the floats likes to wear and snag...thus not allowing enough gas into the bowl. Or too much.

You should not have to crack your throttle to get your bike to light off. You kill the vacuum off the start circuit with that.

Lastly....kick the dog shit out of it. When I first got my bike, I thought I had start issues till a dude told me to sack-up and kick hard and faster....it worked.

Tharrell · Post by **Tharrell** » August 13th, 2011, 3:05 am

All of that plus, I learned how to place my foot on the starter so I got a full kick. I place the ball of my foot on the lever, it made a big difference.

CR500PHIL · Post by **CR500PHIL** » August 15th, 2011, 6:55 pm

The carb is very clean - cleaned it several times. The reeds are new with 94 cage. The top end has 30 minutes on it. The air filter is brand new Uni. I just replaced the ignition with 1993 CR250. The spark is still not what I would call great - sometimes orange and not overly large. I started it on Sat. and once warm started 4 times first kick. I went out Sunday to take it for a spin and kicked about 12 times and gave up - no go again. Oh yes and I had the kill switch off too. I wonder could it be the carb - float sticking up periodically or something like that. Or could the weak spark still be the culprit. Honestly if I kicked it any harder I would perhaps break the case - I had a 89 engine in an AF before - just rebuilt and I started that with ease. The carb is a 26 year old PJ38 BTW. Once running the bike runs perfectly, idles and goes like a bullet - just very weird. How big should the spark be with the 250 ignition? I tried a couple different coils as well including a brand new one with a brand new cap and always new plugs. This is just very strange to say the least. The air gap is very close - thickness of plug box top.

CR500PHIL · Post by **CR500PHIL** » August 16th, 2011, 6:27 pm

Here the latest in the ongoing saga

I put the new coil on with another wire and another new cap - reverified all connections. Now I have a decent spark - white blue and not a bad strength either. I checked it several times and it was consistent. I re-attached the kill button and the spark stayed the same even after toying with it some. I leaned the bike over until gas poured out and then choked it and kicked several times. It did not start so I immediately pulled the plug, still a good spark but the plug was nearly or completely dry. I figured it should have been very wet after that. I am convinced there is an intermittent carb issue - perhaps like the needle valve jamming as Rosco suggested. I am tempted to just order a new PWK or just buy a carb kit for now.

bearorso · Post by **bearorso** » August 16th, 2011, 7:33 pm

Get a New carb. It certainly won't hurt, and, as you've written, you're dealing with a 26 year old carb. The slide /body interface Does wear. Enough wear = a hell of a lot of 'free air' passage 'around' the slide /body interface.

There are a variety of PWK options, I'm sure you can find which one suites you and the use you put the bike to. Plenty of blokes here can give you their thoughts on which PWK to get. Unless the prices have gone up (I think Keihin was virtually levelled in the Japan Tsunami) , it will be a $150 /$250 well worth spent. Unless you can see it, I'd not go for a second hand carb, as PWKs can have seen a hell of a lot of use, though it would be hard to not be tempted by some of the prices that are on 'take offs' out there.

100hp honda · Post by **100hp honda** » August 16th, 2011, 8:58 pm

CR500PHIL wrote: I leaned the bike over until gas poured out and then choked it and kicked several times. It did not start so I immediately pulled the plug, still a good spark but the plug was nearly or completely dry. I figured it should have been very wet after that. I am convinced there is an intermittent carb issue - perhaps like the needle valve jamming as Rosco suggested. I am tempted to just order a new PWK or just buy a carb kit for now.

this is just me and my personal experience. i dont do the lean over deal. never worked for me ever. never had any luck with the slow kick primer bullshit. put in 4th gear and rock few times. works every time for me gauranteed. may have a carb problem also but i wouldnt throw it in the bush just yet. should be able to visually see how bad its worn. chrome flaking off is bad, some slight scuff wear marks aint no big deal. if plug is dry you aint getting fuel. 4th gear deal should work.

CR500PHIL · Post by **CR500PHIL** » August 17th, 2011, 3:55 am

The other thing I thought of is since I have a large Clark tank and an older style PJ with the straight inlet my fuel hose is an S shape. It seems at times that there is an air lock because of this in the fuel line. Again something that getting a newer PJ or PWK will fix since the inlet is at an angle. I think with the cash I have spent on this this summer a used PJ is about the only option since it will cost me another $250.00 for a new PWK. At least this route I can use the new body and mis and match the worn parts.

gregrobo · Post by **gregrobo** » August 17th, 2011, 4:47 am

have you played with the choke circuit/what is it set at

CR500PHIL · Post by **CR500PHIL** » August 17th, 2011, 5:06 am

gregrobo wrote:have you played with the choke circuit/what is it set at

I do not know how many clicks the choke is at but it idles fine and the idle adjustment does have an immediate effect of the idle speed so I am assuming all is good there. As well when I did have it running the choke did make a difference to the engine operation. I have tried two choke valves BTW and the bike acted the same with both. I am thinking that the S shaped fuel line is causing an air lock and / or the needle valve is sticking up. Right now there is a section of air in the top of the S of the fuel line that does not move when I open the peacock. This would also explain why it starts after the carb has been apart since the initial opening of the peacock fills the carb initially. When I get home I am going to try lifting the tank high to see if this forces the fuel in and try starting it.

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