Cr500 on alcohol?

DieHard2Smoke · Post by **DieHard2Smoke** » January 12th, 2011, 6:37 pm

who on here has experience running their cr5 on alcohol?
was it worth the gains? (this bike is strictly for dunes so doesnt have to be trail friendly)
are there any reputable engine builders that build engines for running alcohol?

i am in the infinite pursuit of a faster bike. but i have been searching a lot on the internet for info and there isn't a lo out there.

100hp honda · Post by **100hp honda** » January 12th, 2011, 8:21 pm

alot of info if you look in the right places

. seen quit a few comparative dynos. seen a new one just yesterday. all show more or less the same thing, about +10% hp/tq. not just peak but across the board.

rsss396 · Post by **rsss396** » January 12th, 2011, 8:22 pm

I have ran alcohol for 5 years now on my 500.
The biggest advantages are
-about 5-8% increase in power
-cooler running motor
-maybe a little cheaper than good race fuel(I payed 2.75 gallon last year)

The biggest dis-advantages are:
-fuel mileage is 1/2 of gasoline
-you must purge the motor and carb with premix gas at the end of the day
-tuning and reading plugs is a little different than gas

Lectron is probably your best choice for Alcohol, Dennis Packard or Fast by Gast are the biggest names to set you up.

Dennis is a little 300.00 for a 44mm
http://www.packardracing.com/start.php? ... p%3Fid%3D2

Purging is very important because alcohol will attract water from the air and cause corrosion inside your motor.
some people say its hard on seals put I have never had any issues related to alcohol use.

you will want to have compression setup for 14 or 15 to 1 UCCR

you can also add some ignition timing to the motor.

100hp honda · Post by **100hp honda** » January 12th, 2011, 8:24 pm

yes 5-8% might be more realistic depending on set up and tuning ability

. seen quit a few near 10% but they are usually pro builders

100hp honda · Post by **100hp honda** » January 12th, 2011, 8:31 pm

48 with big bowl was alittle over $500 if i recall. took a big chunk out of the ole wallet

. not to mention the pump and other crap to go along with it

lewisclan · Post by **lewisclan** » January 12th, 2011, 9:13 pm

I just came across a PO from packer for a 48 w big bowl yep $450 and that was a few years ago

Post by **AlisoBob** » January 12th, 2011, 9:24 pm

I think the whole pump thing is totally unnessasary.

No Speedway bike runs one and a Dirtbike has more head pressure than a Speedway bike ever could..

Dual petcocks and fuel lines...

done.

rsss396 · Post by **rsss396** » January 12th, 2011, 10:57 pm

the pump is a margin of safety thing especially if you do long WOT runs.

But I do know allot of people that run without them but then they are only 75.00 and run off the vacuum of the motor so they are easy to hook up.

the 44's are allot cheaper than the 46 48 and 50's

and most guys will do fine with a 44mm and the stock size bowl

http://www.youtube.com/user/500bigbore · Post by **Roostius_Maximus** » January 13th, 2011, 5:42 am

if you went to alky i wouldnt run anything but VP fuels M5, that stuff kicks ass.

I wont run alky, theres way more power in the gas right now and it doenst need the compression.
We're chainging some stock car engines to gas and it makes a big difference.

other things the guys like about it in the cars is that they can put the weight that extra 15 gallons would have taken into a location that works better than at the fuel cell, Lines can be smaller, everything is a bonus until its upside down

The compression alone thats needed to properly run alky is tough on parts, its alot dryer fuel too, so the lube needs to be improved, theres a few brands of "top lube" out there to help that out.

Post by **AlisoBob** » January 13th, 2011, 6:18 am

Roosty.... you havent done any testing on Brits Hoonshine yet.

VP would shit their pants if you sent a sample of that stuff in for analysis.

pstoffers · Post by **pstoffers** » January 13th, 2011, 6:20 am

rsss396 · Post by **rsss396** » January 13th, 2011, 10:21 am

I respectfully disagree that a gas motor 2 stroke will make more power

BTU's is the answer

your motor runs on the amount of BTU's you can burn creating a stronger push from the expanding gases.

Alcohol burns at a higher fuel ratio thus allowing more BTU to be expelled and creating more power.

Funny thing is alcohol puts out less BTU's than gasoline but since it runs at a higher ratio of fuel to air you are able to produce more total BTU's

alcohol has a huge advantage for motors that run hot, it keeps cooling temps inline.

Infact the single best mod I did to my cr500 powered quad was to put it on alcohol.
All my over heating problems were solved with 5% more power to boot.

Alcohol is not detonation proof, in my experience it might be equal to running VP c14

I probably say with confidence that every record for sand dragging at planet sand has been done on alcohol.

Now I do know of some high boost turbo snowmobiles that did not have any luck with alcohol and run VP's "import blend" that has 120+ octane

And the statement about alcohol being dry doesn't work for 2 strokes either because we run oil in our fuel. Castor or synthetic Castor blend is the only oil you can use with methanol.

And VP's M5 has been tried by multiple big name racers in the 2 stroke world with less than stellar performance.

And the increase in compression is a added bonus for someone wanting more horsepower, that is the main reason for wanting to run methanol

I don't see how 4 stroke motors survive running methanol because of the fuel that probably makes its way past the rings into the oil then sits in the oil pan absorbing water
But on 2 strokes a simple purging at the end of the day protects everything.

DieHard2Smoke · Post by **DieHard2Smoke** » January 13th, 2011, 11:11 am

thanks for the info.

i would like to see some #s behind these gas setups that are better than alcohol. not trying to offend anyone but i have always thought that alcohol when properly tuned is always going to make more power due to the fact that alcohol has less BTUs but you put twice as much fuel in it.

is FTZ a reliable company? i found them on the internet claiming good things about their alky carbs. but have never heard anyone running their set ups.

obviously you have to bring up the compression a bunch from the stock 6.8 to 1. whats the best way to do this? milling head, buying new head or what.

and what about porting? im assuming that since twice as much fuel will be passing thru porting would have to change.

lewisclan · Post by **lewisclan** » January 13th, 2011, 11:54 am

Here is a pm from the guy I bought this carb from. its still seting in the box in my shop its a FTZ alky carb .

Not sure if you'd be interested or not, but I've also got a dang near brand new FTZ Racing 39/41.5 mikuni booster alky carb setup for a cr500 too. I paid 435.00 for it a couple months ago, and it's only had 10 gallons through it. I was hoping to get close to 300 for it, but if you want it, I'd let it go for 250. Let me know if you'd be interested and I can send you some pics.

Rick
Rich
IP Logged

All | Next PM »

That PM was from Rick who is on the other site to me.
I bought it along with alot of other parts and paid $250.00 for it and never bolted it on its still in the box it can in.
let me know if you want it ill let it go for what I paid

Kuma · Post by **Kuma** » January 13th, 2011, 12:39 pm

along time ago I worked in a race shop, my memory is not what it used to be.
Alcahol is 124 octane, this allows you to run a much higher compression, take advantage of that.
the reason you use 2 times as much Al to Gas is not that you are burning 2 times as much, the cooling effect of Al is because there is a large amount that goes out of the exhaust un burnt which carries heat out with it.

If you buy Methonal from a chemical house by the 55 gallon drum you can get it for about $4/gal, just bought some VP, cost for 5 gallon was $6/gallon.

rsss396 · Post by **rsss396** » January 13th, 2011, 3:11 pm

Kuma wrote: Alcahol is 124 octane, this allows you to run a much higher compression, take advantage of that.
the reason you use 2 times as much Al to Gas is not that you are burning 2 times as much, the cooling effect of Al is because there is a large amount that goes out of the exhaust un burnt which carries heat out with it.

If you buy Methonal from a chemical house by the 55 gallon drum you can get it for about $4/gal, just bought some VP, cost for 5 gallon was $6/gallon.

VP fuel is more expensive, but we buy from a shop that buys methanol in bulk and got it for only 2.75 a gallon last year 2.50 the year before.

below is the air fuel ratios, notice how rich methanol is that is why you use so much.

Gasoline: 12.5 to 1

Ethanol: 9.0 to 1

Methanol: 6.0 to 1

quote from a article:
"You may find it interesting that methanol and ethanol both have a very low air-fuel ratio, while the carbon chain length is comparable to methane and ethane. The reason for that is alcohols like methanol and ethanol already carry oxygen themselves, which reduces the need for oxygen from the air."

differant write up below:

Gasoline - Gasoline is what most of our cars came setup so it's usually what we stick with. Gasoline is a mixture of hydrocarbons. The petroleum distillate fraction termed "gasoline" contains mostly saturated hydrocarbons usually with a chemical formula of C8H18. The air fuel ratio, A/F Ratio, for complete combustion is 14.7:1, stoichiometric. The A/F ratio for maximum power is approximately 12.5:1 - 12.8:1. This means that our engine at max power, 12.8:1, consumes 12.8 pounds of air for 1 pound of fuel. Gasoline has approximately 18,400 BTU/lb . Using the air flow calculator with the default inputs we get our 355 SBC consumes 567.53 cfm @ 6500rpm which is 42.64 pounds of air and consumes 2.89 pounds of fuel. Therefore if we are using gasoline our engine is producing 53,176 BTU's of energy at 6500 rpm.

Alcohol (Methanol) - Alcohol is usually used in the form of Methyl alcohol or methanol. CH3OH is the chemical formula. Methanol burns at a much richer mixture than gasoline does, between 5.0:1 - 6.0:1. That's 5 lbs of air to one pound of fuel. Methanol has approximately 9,500 BTU/lb. Using our 355, example above, SBC consumes 567.53 cfm @ 6500rpm which is 42.64 pounds of air and now at 6.0:1 ratio for Methanol is 7.11 pounds of fuel. Therefore if we are using Methanol fuel our engine is producing 67,545 BTU's of energy at 6500 rpm.

Nitromethane - is a fuel that is used mostly in specialized drag racing classes, "nitro funny cars" and "top fuel". Nitromethane's chemical formula is CH3NO2. The oxygen in nitromethane's molecular structure means that nitromethane does not need as much atmospheric oxygen to burn, part of the oxygen needed to burn nitromethane is carried in the fuel itself. Typical A/F ratio for nitromethane is 1.7:1 and nitromethane has an energy content of 5,000 BTU/lb. Using our 355, example above, SBC consumes 567.53 cfm @ 6500rpm which is 42.64 pounds of air and now at 1.7:1 ratio for nitromethane is 25.08 pounds of fuel. Therefore if we are using Nitromethane fuel our engine is producing 125,412 BTU's of energy at 6500 rpm.

link to the info: http://www.smokemup.com/tech/fuels.php

DieHard2Smoke · Post by **DieHard2Smoke** » January 13th, 2011, 4:22 pm

Lewisclan
i am interested in an alky carb, but wont be for a few weeks because i am a broke college student. need to sell this POS car i fixed for some cash ha.

rsss396
what methanol fuel do you run? what did you do to raise the compression to 15 to 1 and did you change the porting?

100hp honda · Post by **100hp honda** » January 13th, 2011, 4:44 pm

bob i think you miss the point why some bikes need a pump and some dont. just because a speedway bike doesnt use a pump doesnt meen every other bike doesnt need a pump. you need a certain a/f ratio. whether you use a 30mm or 50mm it doesnt matter. your still going to tune the carb to that specific a/f ratio. less air meens less fuel is needed, more air- more fuel etc etc. obviously their carbs maintain the desired a/f ratio for long periods of time on gravity feed. im thinking this is by design. no way could they carry 5gal of fuel on board. the tanks look like 1/2 gal, 48 lectron with pj would suck that down in 3 laps. so im guessing they keep their flow parameters in check so they can do the desired amounts of laps without carrying a 55gal drum of fuel in their lap. a dune racer doesnt have to worry, he puts enough fuel in for one run up the hill, fuel consuption is not a issue. the more you can put in the engine the better.

rsss396 · Post by **rsss396** » January 13th, 2011, 4:55 pm

I have a 55 gallon drum of vp m1 that I picked up cheap off a guy that got out of racing but the methanol I get up at silver lake MI cmes bulk at a dealer outside the park, the dealer sells TORCO so I would think maybe it's from them. I have not seen a difference between them.

My motor has a cool head that has a dome cut for alcohol , since my motor is stroked you can take a normal dome and get enough compression out of it even after cutting the squish
A stock stroke would have to start with a blank dome.
If you milled the cylinder and stock head then recur the squish you could probably use stock parts.

You do not have port the motor but methanol will create more torque so you can run slightly higher port numbers than gas.

100hp honda · Post by **100hp honda** » January 13th, 2011, 6:30 pm

found this on lectron site. it pertains only to lectron carbs specifically but this is what they recomend.

Can I convert my “gas” Lectron to an “alcohol” ?
Yes, first you must have a power jet carburetor to start with. When you are using the carburetor for a 2 stroke engine you must add an additional power jet, for a total of two power jets. For a 4 stroke this is not necessary. he other modifications is changing the needle & seat and metering rod. We HIGHLY recommend using a fuel pump to keep proper fuel flow. We have found with Alcohol applications gravity feed is not sufficient.

100hp honda · Post by **100hp honda** » January 13th, 2011, 6:35 pm

another thing i was thinking about the speedway thing, maybe they modify the needle/seat to flow even more than normal from gravity. i never seen them bikes up close so i have no idea. just a guess

NightBiker07 · Post by **NightBiker07** » January 13th, 2011, 6:53 pm

Remember, E-85 is 85% grain alcohol, 15% gas, and it is dirt cheap....might be a good option for an alcohol-based motor.

DieHard2Smoke · Post by **DieHard2Smoke** » January 14th, 2011, 9:58 am

i have been thinking about E85 because it is so cheap as well. but how many people are running it, would be hard to find people with similar set ups to compare. i think it would be worthwhile to make it 100% methanol to maximize your power.

http://www.youtube.com/user/500bigbore · January 14th, 2011, 11:07 am

the e85 is very onconsistant

http://www.youtube.com/user/500bigbore · January 14th, 2011, 11:07 am

the e85 is very inconsistant

BannedCR500Riders.com

Cr500 on alcohol?

Cr500 on alcohol?