Zig zags are the go....let us know what year 125 headstays were used & the mods required please...
Gregs would work if it was Boxed in (had a top & bottom plate welded to it)..or by simply addind a piece of rectangular tube to the inside then welded in, this would stiffen it up very well.....
It all boils down to what materials you have at hand and the skill level, tooling & $ you've got to spend on your build.
Craddle cracked, snapped...
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asteroid500
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- Location: Australia Melbourne
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nmdesertrider
- Posts: 678
- Joined: February 22nd, 2008, 8:18 pm
I just got some bracket from what I believe a 125 '02-07. I measured them from bolt to bolt (center): Longest side 4"1/8 Short side 3"3/8.
Anybody have another year they can measure? If they were a bit longer that couldn't hurt but these would also works.
I just cut off the 2 tubes today, I will bend 2 other tomorrow probably. I still need to cut the mounts off the old tube so I can reuse them.
nmdesertrider, do you have a better pic of your coil mounts? I have to relocate mine. I know Bob put his in the airbox I think but I don't really want mine there.
Anybody have another year they can measure? If they were a bit longer that couldn't hurt but these would also works.
I just cut off the 2 tubes today, I will bend 2 other tomorrow probably. I still need to cut the mounts off the old tube so I can reuse them.
nmdesertrider, do you have a better pic of your coil mounts? I have to relocate mine. I know Bob put his in the airbox I think but I don't really want mine there.
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nmdesertrider
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high velocity
- Posts: 66
- Joined: January 20th, 2008, 9:23 pm
- Location: albuquerque nm
There's a lot of ways of doing AFs.
I look at how the Head Stay is done on the donor bike. And emulate that , in terms of force vectors / vibration etc.
An AF frame that has a head stay from the shock tower - well that's where I take it from.
Conversely, with later 4t frames - with plates from the side ( which allow the frame spars to flex as they were designed to do ) either a curved cross tube ( emulating the front, curved, cross tube, to , once again allow the spars to flex as intended) OR plates going back up and in. OR, much like Gregrobos, but with the plate mount landing reinforced across the shock tower - mainly because I'm not sure of the gauge/internal shape of the forward section that I'm welding to. Boxing in Gregrobos head stay plates Would Not be a good idea. He's made them out of a appropriate gauge, and, with his knowledge and facilities, I'm sure an appropriate material, for the way he has done it.
A head stay is a head stay, especially on a twin spar alloy frame - making it much stronger / stiffer than it should be, can be just as dangerous (perhaps a hell of a lot more dangerous) as if it's too flimsy. See how minimalistic the later KTM head stays are made - very much a study in force / stress / flex / vibration directing and control. And head stays on conventional back bone frames do tend to be Much more of the frames integrity than twin spars.
With regards to the original posters build / repair:
The sheer (bad pun) rigidity of the head stay could be a major factor in the down tube / cradle problems. Even with how far away from the failure sites it is.
Another point is being absolutely sure of the material you Did use - make damned sure you are getting what you paid for - I've 38.10 x 17.45 x 3.125 in both 6060 ( well about 500mm of it, after sending the shit back about 12 years ago) and 6061 that, with the naked eye, you can't tell the difference.
The down tube repair - of concern now is the (std, ex factory?) 'join' above the plating, together with the welding of the plate across the downtube. I would have taken the plate up onto the down tube further, welding to the forward corners, that could be regarded as neutral axis ( far from correct, but used as a simplistic explanation here), with No weld across the down tube at the top.
And, of course, others advice on vibration issues, shimming mounts etc are all things to consider.
I've had no problems whatsoever with bending 6061T651, in 25.4mm x 3.125mm, in radius' as tight as 80mm. But it was done very carefully, on the best machines available. I've also annealed material, formed it, and heat treated it again, both as the insert, or in the full fabrication. No problems there either.
I've made full frames, swing arms, frame modifications, with and without heat treating after fabrication. And with heat treatment ranging from basic aging, to full solution heat treatment.
A lot of RULES are broken, with regards to materials and fabrication process', by a lot of us, a lot of engineers, companies etc. You research various methods / approaches, think carefully about how you are going to do something, then do it to the best of your ability. But always with thought to how you are taking your, or, more importantly, some one else's safety in your hands.
I am a qualified Mech Eng, a fully accredited welder, and have been designing and fabricating since my early teens. And I've made mistakes, I even do now. But, thankfully very few. I now herd small furry creatures for 1/2 of my living, and attend TAFE and UNI whilst getting my Dip Ed.
What I love to see are the various approaches, ideas and builds on this and other sites. I see some beautiful work and clever ideas, from so many blokes - and very little shit.
It reinforces my faith in the 'can do' part of human beings - though, admittedly, this site and others, do attract that sort of person, and not the drones that are such a worry at times.
I look at how the Head Stay is done on the donor bike. And emulate that , in terms of force vectors / vibration etc.
An AF frame that has a head stay from the shock tower - well that's where I take it from.
Conversely, with later 4t frames - with plates from the side ( which allow the frame spars to flex as they were designed to do ) either a curved cross tube ( emulating the front, curved, cross tube, to , once again allow the spars to flex as intended) OR plates going back up and in. OR, much like Gregrobos, but with the plate mount landing reinforced across the shock tower - mainly because I'm not sure of the gauge/internal shape of the forward section that I'm welding to. Boxing in Gregrobos head stay plates Would Not be a good idea. He's made them out of a appropriate gauge, and, with his knowledge and facilities, I'm sure an appropriate material, for the way he has done it.
A head stay is a head stay, especially on a twin spar alloy frame - making it much stronger / stiffer than it should be, can be just as dangerous (perhaps a hell of a lot more dangerous) as if it's too flimsy. See how minimalistic the later KTM head stays are made - very much a study in force / stress / flex / vibration directing and control. And head stays on conventional back bone frames do tend to be Much more of the frames integrity than twin spars.
With regards to the original posters build / repair:
The sheer (bad pun) rigidity of the head stay could be a major factor in the down tube / cradle problems. Even with how far away from the failure sites it is.
Another point is being absolutely sure of the material you Did use - make damned sure you are getting what you paid for - I've 38.10 x 17.45 x 3.125 in both 6060 ( well about 500mm of it, after sending the shit back about 12 years ago) and 6061 that, with the naked eye, you can't tell the difference.
The down tube repair - of concern now is the (std, ex factory?) 'join' above the plating, together with the welding of the plate across the downtube. I would have taken the plate up onto the down tube further, welding to the forward corners, that could be regarded as neutral axis ( far from correct, but used as a simplistic explanation here), with No weld across the down tube at the top.
And, of course, others advice on vibration issues, shimming mounts etc are all things to consider.
I've had no problems whatsoever with bending 6061T651, in 25.4mm x 3.125mm, in radius' as tight as 80mm. But it was done very carefully, on the best machines available. I've also annealed material, formed it, and heat treated it again, both as the insert, or in the full fabrication. No problems there either.
I've made full frames, swing arms, frame modifications, with and without heat treating after fabrication. And with heat treatment ranging from basic aging, to full solution heat treatment.
A lot of RULES are broken, with regards to materials and fabrication process', by a lot of us, a lot of engineers, companies etc. You research various methods / approaches, think carefully about how you are going to do something, then do it to the best of your ability. But always with thought to how you are taking your, or, more importantly, some one else's safety in your hands.
I am a qualified Mech Eng, a fully accredited welder, and have been designing and fabricating since my early teens. And I've made mistakes, I even do now. But, thankfully very few. I now herd small furry creatures for 1/2 of my living, and attend TAFE and UNI whilst getting my Dip Ed.
What I love to see are the various approaches, ideas and builds on this and other sites. I see some beautiful work and clever ideas, from so many blokes - and very little shit.
It reinforces my faith in the 'can do' part of human beings - though, admittedly, this site and others, do attract that sort of person, and not the drones that are such a worry at times.
Well, what I plan to do now is to bend 2 new tubes, fit them making sure there is no tension in them. Have them welded, then have the 4 engines mounts welded. And I think I might use the 125 headstay bracket so I will have to weld a block on the shock tower too.
Keep the suggestion/comments coming, I'm learning a lot on this forum and I appreciate it.
Keep the suggestion/comments coming, I'm learning a lot on this forum and I appreciate it.
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asteroid500
- Posts: 1047
- Joined: January 5th, 2009, 1:29 am
- Location: Australia Melbourne
bearoso your the man answered in full
blackz34 when you get your new frame welded cut some tube the same lenght as the engine bosses and put it in the mounts to simulate the motor being bolted in this also helps the material to return to the same position after being welded good luck
blackz34 when you get your new frame welded cut some tube the same lenght as the engine bosses and put it in the mounts to simulate the motor being bolted in this also helps the material to return to the same position after being welded good luck
only posties ride 4 stroke hondas
goldfields sheet metal fabrication
98 yzfr1
05 crf 500 race tech goldies
2010 rmz 500af
01 banshee
goldfields sheet metal fabrication
98 yzfr1
05 crf 500 race tech goldies
2010 rmz 500af
01 banshee
Will do, thanks again!!gregrobo wrote:bearoso your the man answered in full
blackz34 when you get your new frame welded cut some tube the same lenght as the engine bosses and put it in the mounts to simulate the motor being bolted in this also helps the material to return to the same position after being welded good luck
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scooter5002
- Posts: 425
- Joined: July 31st, 2010, 5:22 am
- Location: Tillsonburg On
Getting some differing views on a headstay here. My AF project from MPS (don't even get me started) came with a piece of 3/8's dowel with 2 tabs welded on it for each side of the head stay. That don't even come CLOSE to fitting properly. It runs from the existing tabs on the spars for the 450. Thought it was a P.O.S. BEFORE I saw this website. Now I'm completely convinced. So....what do I do guys? I want to do this right the first time and not wind up like the pictured frame. I have an 04 450 frame and I'm not even sure what grade aluminum the shop used for the frame mods. I assumed the guy knew what he was doing. After what I've been through, I'm second guessing the entire job. Bob's version looks the strongest but seems to be a differing point of view on this. Any help would be appreciated. Hoping maybe to ride this bike before the season's over but I won't risk it until I know it's right.
Scooter,
You'll get a Lot of takes on conversions here, that's the beauty of the site.
If your keen on Bobs set up - and his set up cross references to your bike, there's the one for you! From what I have read of his, it's a elegant, logical way to do his generation, and he's been very generous in his build notes - as so many blokes are here.
WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON WHEN A COMPANY, THAT HAS DONE CONVERSIONS FOR YEARS, YET GETS IT SO WRONG THAT THE FINISHED AND PAID FOR JOB, DOESN'T BUILD UP?
I'd be in axe murderer mode, in an instant.
If you can , and Bob is OK with it (as , I guess, there could possibly be some legal risk in exposing bad workmanship on a site?), it would be a good thing to post up pics of the problems with your conversion from the builder in question.
It's not rocket science, and these blokes charge money for something they have no excuses for stuffing up. A lot of blokes don't have access to what's needed to do their own conversions, so those that charge money, yet stuff it up, need to be exposed as incompetent / fraudulent.
Some people / businesses need to be dealt with.
** I'm in war mode, I've spent all day setting up my old mum's new TV, DVR, her computer, internet, aerials etc, when I'd set out today for some further work on my latest version of a tank. It's not something I enjoy doing. I'm an angry man , at the moment and I've been pretty bloody snarky with her - not something to be proud of
..... My mum's a cool old coot, even if she drives me crazy much of the time.
You'll get a Lot of takes on conversions here, that's the beauty of the site.
If your keen on Bobs set up - and his set up cross references to your bike, there's the one for you! From what I have read of his, it's a elegant, logical way to do his generation, and he's been very generous in his build notes - as so many blokes are here.
WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON WHEN A COMPANY, THAT HAS DONE CONVERSIONS FOR YEARS, YET GETS IT SO WRONG THAT THE FINISHED AND PAID FOR JOB, DOESN'T BUILD UP?
I'd be in axe murderer mode, in an instant.
If you can , and Bob is OK with it (as , I guess, there could possibly be some legal risk in exposing bad workmanship on a site?), it would be a good thing to post up pics of the problems with your conversion from the builder in question.
It's not rocket science, and these blokes charge money for something they have no excuses for stuffing up. A lot of blokes don't have access to what's needed to do their own conversions, so those that charge money, yet stuff it up, need to be exposed as incompetent / fraudulent.
Some people / businesses need to be dealt with.
** I'm in war mode, I've spent all day setting up my old mum's new TV, DVR, her computer, internet, aerials etc, when I'd set out today for some further work on my latest version of a tank. It's not something I enjoy doing. I'm an angry man , at the moment and I've been pretty bloody snarky with her - not something to be proud of
..... My mum's a cool old coot, even if she drives me crazy much of the time.-
nmdesertrider
- Posts: 678
- Joined: February 22nd, 2008, 8:18 pm
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scooter5002
- Posts: 425
- Joined: July 31st, 2010, 5:22 am
- Location: Tillsonburg On
Thanks for the advice bear. I completely agree with you about the people who should NOT be in business if they can't do the job properly. All the mistakes (save the headstay) that came on this frame have been fixed. So I cant contribute to the process. Will try to put up a pic of the stay. When I figure out how. I'm sure I'm not the only one who got stung. Lol. How about a "Not Endorsed Vendors" list. MPS would be top of my list. After my first three hours working on my frame to fix it, this sort of......SORT OF....describes how I felt. 
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2strokeforever
- Posts: 1524
- Joined: November 13th, 2009, 1:04 pm
- Location: Vernon B.C Canada
dosent matter what honduh wants to call it, CRF is not a R because its not a two strokehonda has a (X) or a (R) no f
honda made R bikes, honduh makes F s even if they try and pass it off as a R
the 450 will have less power and will be harder to start, and will be heavier, but to make up for it it will require more maintenance.
4stroke=dead fish
4stroke=dead fish
what are you smoking we have both a crf450x and a crf450r in our shed if you want to find a model with a designation of (f) go look at a yamaha yz450f2strokeforever wrote:dosent matter what honduh wants to call it, CRF is not a R because its not a two strokehonda has a (X) or a (R) no f
honda made R bikes, honduh makes F s even if they try and pass it off as a R
only posties ride 4 stroke hondas
goldfields sheet metal fabrication
98 yzfr1
05 crf 500 race tech goldies
2010 rmz 500af
01 banshee
goldfields sheet metal fabrication
98 yzfr1
05 crf 500 race tech goldies
2010 rmz 500af
01 banshee
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asteroid500
- Posts: 1047
- Joined: January 5th, 2009, 1:29 am
- Location: Australia Melbourne
Oh shit, now we're going to debate where the F belongs?! They all belong in the scrap heap if you ask me. 
From the photos I've seen on MPS, they shave off part of the original mounts on the bottom of the frame tubes leaving only one bolt hole. I guess they do that for looks but not sure why. Anyway, if that is the case with yours, fix it the way nmdesertrider or gregrobo did in pics in this thread.
Bearorso, hang in there man. I spent half my weekend working at "mums" place as well. Figure it's pay back for all the shit we put them thru growing up.
From the photos I've seen on MPS, they shave off part of the original mounts on the bottom of the frame tubes leaving only one bolt hole. I guess they do that for looks but not sure why. Anyway, if that is the case with yours, fix it the way nmdesertrider or gregrobo did in pics in this thread.Bearorso, hang in there man. I spent half my weekend working at "mums" place as well. Figure it's pay back for all the shit we put them thru growing up.
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nmdesertrider
- Posts: 678
- Joined: February 22nd, 2008, 8:18 pm
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2strokeforever
- Posts: 1524
- Joined: November 13th, 2009, 1:04 pm
- Location: Vernon B.C Canada
well boys we lit up the 450 conversion today not a vibration runs smooth as silk we did add abit of round stock drilled and tapped between the headstay to take any harmonics it may of had the head stay looks to be about 15-20mm longer than msdesertriders setup not a great deal,anyway lots of different ways to get to the same point have a good a good weekend riding fellas
only posties ride 4 stroke hondas
goldfields sheet metal fabrication
98 yzfr1
05 crf 500 race tech goldies
2010 rmz 500af
01 banshee
goldfields sheet metal fabrication
98 yzfr1
05 crf 500 race tech goldies
2010 rmz 500af
01 banshee