4 stroke death toll...

[MICK]

I brought something up on the other board about this. I'm sure just about everyone here has been through it. But as the AMA MX season reaches the midpoint, bikes are blowing up at an increasing rate. It blows me away nobody else (on TV) thinks this is odd? Like they're used to it? These are just what I can gather from TV. Only includes engine related DNF's. Sadly I'll never know how many privateers loose their motors. Maybe some of you can chime in?

1. Chad Reed YZ450F, Daytona
2. Kyle Calderini CRF450R, Edward Jones Dome
3. Austin Stroupe KX250F, Wortham
4. Jason Lawrence YZ250F, Mt. Morris
5. Mike Brown YZ250F, Red Bud
6. Ryan Dungey RMZ250, Red Bud

...to be continued

[JBaze]

Everyone I know who rides a newer model 4 stroke has done major engine work at great expense. From top end jobs to whole motor rebuilds. Some of these guys have put enough money into 1 bike they could have bought 2 brand new ones. No one I know races anymore, but you would think an $8000 + brand new bike would last a little longer than a couple of weeks.

[Wheelie-Gene]

Daytona had to be the most painful race I'd ever seen (for one rider). Chad was blasting through the swamp. Was he a full lap in the lead???

1/2 lap- to go and I saw the back-fires coming out of the pipe....then it quit. He was kicking it for at least 5 minutes....it wouldn't start.
It was a cratered engine??? I thought he was out of gas.

[teemtrubble]

Every one I know that races or rides a 4 stroke has lost a motor and I know a few people. It's sad to say that it is inevitable and has become acceptable in the industry among the many people who buy them. Some of you that know me and have been to my shops know I own quite a few bikes and ride them pretty hard I have a brand new CRF250 that I bought to do a conversion and all I can say is motor wise what a piece of shit and as a conversion well that's still to be determined...

[MICK]

I've heard three excuses:

1. Bike ran out of gas
2. Motor ate a vavle
3. Motor drank a Daytona Beach martini

I've still got the race recorded on DVR. The firework show from his muffler prior to detonation says it all.

[mxracr121]

Keep in mind pro -race bikes are not designed to last more then a couple hours. They are worked and built for max power, not longetivity Using pro race bikes aren't good examples to use. Use local riders bikes.

[AlisoBob]

Keep in mind pro -race bikes are not designed to last more then a couple hours. They are worked and built for max power, not longetivity

Thats crap.....

If a F-1 motor was 450cc, it would have 140 hp ( .33 hp per cc). F-1 motors live through two complete race weekends... ( practice, qualifying, race itself) and failures are pretty rare.

[100hp honda]

Keep in mind pro -race bikes are not designed to last more then a couple hours. They are worked and built for max power, not longetivity Using pro race bikes aren't good examples to use. Use local riders bikes.

i can see some truth in this. john force losses a couple pistons if not the whole motor every run

[ellett]

Thats crap.....

If a F-1 motor was 450cc, it would have 140 hp ( .33 hp per cc). F-1 motors live through two complete race weekends... ( practice, qualifying, race itself) and failures are pretty rare.

Just because they have the knowledge and the technology, doesn't mean they have the budget.

[teemtrubble]

Ellett Honda builds F1 motors...

[ellett]

Ellett Honda builds F1 motors...

Just because they have the knowledge and the technology, doesn't mean they have the budget.

[teemtrubble]

I guess my point was they already have the technology but, why use it if the end user just thinks 2-3 thousand in parts and labor is acceptable with every modern four stroke dirtbike. It's the same with all the manufacturers. They've created a new level of acceptance that's a consumable product and that is economic genius for the manufacturer. They are laughing their asses off at the consumer's all the way to the bank!

[ellett]

Let me put it this way:

Just because Honda's F1 team knows how to make a 2.4L V8 spin to 19,000 RPM reliably (albeit, uncompetitively) for a couple hundred miles doesn't mean they can afford to do it in MX.

[ellett]

They are laughing their asses off at the consumer's all the way to the bank!

I agree, four-strokes are way more profitable than two-strokes.

[Travis]

They are laughing their asses off at the consumer's all the way to the bank!

I agree, four-strokes are way more profitable than two-strokes.

No kidding. I have always thought about that. After the bike, car, truck, or whatever is sold once, that is all the manufacturer gets paid for it. If I sell my bike to someone else Honda gets nothing. However, if it breaks everytime you ride it and its new enough for the aftermarket not to have made replacement parts for you, well then Honda keeps filling their pockets with parts sales after you have initially bought the product. This works for any manufacturer not just Honda. And I think new cars and trucks are worse than bikes in this practice.

[MICK]

not longetivity Using pro race bikes aren't good examples to use. Use local riders bikes.

Yeah, I know those caliber machines are built up so much survivability is going to be neglected. I just don't believe the 2 strokes of the near past were any less built in this regard. And they very seldom failed. I can only recall two incidents when a pro caliber 2 stroke grenaded.

But honestly I thought I was being kind just using the Factory machines. There aren't enough hours in a day for me to recall all of the privateer 4 strokes that I've watched suck a valve. The amature seen appears to be much worse off.

[Exnav]

I guess my point was they already have the technology but, why use it if the end user just thinks 2-3 thousand in parts and labor is acceptable with every modern four stroke dirtbike. It's the same with all the manufacturers. They've created a new level of acceptance that's a consumable product and that is economic genius for the manufacturer. They are laughing their asses off at the consumer's all the way to the bank!

And ultimately, this will end up hurting the manufacturer in the long run since dirt bikes are largely discretionary income purchases.

[ellett]

I can only recall two incidents when a pro caliber 2 stroke grenaded.

The only one I can think of was Pingree's KTM breaking a piston on the take-off of a triple back in, what, '03?

[MICK]

...and Stewart's KX125 ate a Vertex piston. I don't remember if Emig ran out of gas in '97 giving the championship away or if his 250 blew up? Oh I remember, he got a flat tire! So yeah, Pingree and Stewart are the only two I can think of.

[mxracr121]

Keep in mind pro -race bikes are not designed to last more then a couple hours. They are worked and built for max power, not longetivity

Thats crap.....

If a F-1 motor was 450cc, it would have 140 hp ( .33 hp per cc). F-1 motors live through two complete race weekends... ( practice, qualifying, race itself) and failures are pretty rare.

Not crap, its the truth. The Factory teams including Pro Circuit and those with fairly large budgets rebuild the bikes (engines) every single race, whether they need it or not. Even when it was all 2-stroke, all the time. I've heard the engines are built to last about 3-4 hours. They have no need for them to last any longer, they need power (more so on the 250f's).

When you send your engine to Pro Circuit to be built, they aren't giving you what Villapoto is running. You wouldn't be happy for very long.

I've seen plenty of blown highly modified 2-stroke engines also, when you start messing with stuff for huge power gains, your going to decrease your reliability.

I'm not a 4-stroke fan, so I'm not defending them, but I know plenty of people who are getting great reliabilty from them. Of course you hear about somebody blowing up one here and there, but I know plenty of 2-strokes that blew-up in the past too, some with very few hours. The biggest difference is that it cost about 4 times more to fix that 4-stroke.

[mxracr121]

...and Stewart's KX125 ate a Vertex piston. I don't remember if Emig ran out of gas in '97 giving the championship away or if his 250 blew up? Oh I remember, he got a flat tire! So yeah, Pingree and Stewart are the only two I can think of.

Emig won the championship in '97, it was McGrath who got the flat and lost the champioship.

[AlisoBob]

They have no need for them to last any longer, they need power (more so on the 250f's).

"Power levels" have little to do with MX engines expiring....

If Ferrari built 450cc mx engines..... They would have 20% more power, and last 1/2 the season.

[nmdesertrider]

what are you guys saying, 4 strokes are crap

[teemtrubble]

I am!

[MICK]

I guess I try to conceptualize things using my family and friends as a base.
My point: Everyone I ride with in Idaho owns a 250/500 and X brand fourstroke. So neither two or fourstroke gets ridden 100% of the time. Nobody I know has put a copper penny into their two stroke in the last three years. My Dad's '03 Gas Gas 200 is running on the original top end. But not a month goes by I don't get a phone call or email about someone's four stroke taking a big steaming shit. It's not everybody's fourstrokes all the time, many of them will run for most of the season. But of the 12 or so guys who do own them, it's another painfull ($$$) story every month.

I am quite glad however that their experiences have kept me clear of that market. And it wasn't long ago many more of the riders I knew rode fourstrokes. But their patience has been spent in years past and for a growing many it's been back to the pre mix.

I did however ride a fourstroke the other day that makes sense. A street legal CRF230! That's what Fourstroke engines were meant for...a cheap reliable fun way to work and back!