Cylinder Talk.....

[blownbillybob]

I don't know what bore size that cyl is in the pics but look how the sleeve bottle necks down as it goes around towards the transfers, that shit looks like it's going to crack off !!! I've seen broken ones before but on the intake side. Scrap it !!!!

[AlisoBob]

I don't know what bore size that cyl is in the pics ...

89.5mm

[Roostius_Maximus]

ok, Heres something rediculous for you guys.
You know the thread where member 2strokeforever posted pictures of his piston wear, Theres more to it.
I'm porting it, first thing i do when it gets here is to throw a std bore piston in it and check the port heights.
The piston doesnt go all the way down, kinda like GSS is working at honda now.
I measure all the shit, looking for dings, dents or wierdness that happened to it after it was machined at HONDA
NOTHING, not a scratch scrape or ding anywhere. The bore is .0048 smaller than standard 1" from the bottom of the sleeve, the OD of the sleeve is correct and measures strait.
IT wasnt machined right
Its dammn nice now, the most varriation came from the intake side of the skirt, took a bit to make it strait, the exhaust side of the sleeve had wear that made it need to be bored 89.50.

I've measured 3 other cylinders after washing the oem hunney out of them, all nice stuff. this one has me confused.
It was visable when i looked at the cyl after it arrived that there was some wierdness going on.

[BrianPaul69]

Very easy explanation, the cylinder thats .0048" tight on the bottom was bored right around quitting time on a Friday and the beer and strippers were waiting

[Roostius_Maximus]

i considered that, or it was an act of "terrible lizzard"

[AlisoBob]

His name is " Gren " ......

[BrianPaul69]

Notice the one common thread of ALL siezure types is the breakdown of the oil film. This is why so many Hoons insist on running CASTOR oil products. No other oil can match the film stregnth, this is something even the Synthetic companies will admit. If avoiding siezures is all about film stregnth, well......, I guess you know what oil you need to run ......

Any other questions regarding cylinder prep and oil selection?

Ok Bob, I don't mean to keep pissing on your parade but I like to do my research and I found two well spoken and factual engineers that contrast Castor Based oils and synthetic oils.

Upon doing my research I found this website and decided to take a look :

http://www.ultimatesyntheticoil.com/Sca ... eptics.htm

I was thinking it was some hack site just bashing synthetics and Amsoil but found out its run by an engineer that takes all criticism and responds with educated facts based on his engineering background.

Ok, here is the first article I found written by a Chemical Engineer who just so happens to work for a petroleum oil company that highly recommends castor based oils :

CASTOR OIL
By Bert Striegler.


Back in 1983 there was quite a controversy in magazines about the tests that were necessary to measure the "lubricity" of various oils that might be useful in engines. Castor oil was used as the benchmark, but it was obvious no one knew why this was so. They apparently got a lot of info on various industry tests of lubricants, but these were really designed for other purposes. This was my answer. I will remind you that I was a lubrication engineer and not a chemist, but I drew my chemical info from Bob Durr, the most experienced lubricant scientist in the labs at Conoco.

Bob worked with my group on many product development projects and I can tell you that he is one smart hombre! Small changes were made in the text, but surprisingly very little has really changed since this was originally written. Here goes with the answer:

"I thought I would answer your plea for more information on castor oil and its "film strength", which can be a very misleading term. I have never really seen a satisfactory way to measure the film strength of an oil like castor oil. We routinely use tests like the Falex test, the Timken test or the Shell 4-ball test, but these are primarily designed to measure the effect of chemical extreme pressure agents such as are used in gear oils. These "EP" agents have no function in an IC engine, particularly the two-stroke model engine types.

You really have to go back to the basics of lubrication to get a better handle on what happens in a engine. For any fluid to act as a lubricant, it must first be "polar" enough to wet the moving surfaces. Next, it must have a high resistance to surface boiling and vaporization at the temperatures encountered. Ideally the fluid should have "oiliness", which is difficult to measure but generally requires a rather large molecular structure. Even water can be a good lubricant under the right conditions.

Castor oil meets these rather simple requirements in an engine, with only one really severe drawback in that it is thermally unstable. This unusual instability is the thing that lets castor oil lubricate at temperatures well beyond those at which most synthetics will work.

Castor oil is roughly 87% triglyceride of ricinoleic acid, [ (CH3(CH2)5CH(OH)CH2CH=CH(CH2)7COO)3(OC)3H5 ], which is unique because there is a double bond in the 9th position and a hydroxyl in the 11th position. As the temperature goes up, it loses one molecule of water and becomes a "drying" oil. Another look at the molecule. Castor oil has excellent storage stability at room temperatures, but it polymerizes rapidly as the temperature goes up. As it polymerizes, it forms ever-heavier "oils" that are rich in esters. These esters do not even begin to decompose until the temperature hits about 650 degrees F (343 deg C). Castor oil forms huge molecular structures at these elevated temperatures - in other words, as the temperature goes up, the castor oil exposed to these temperatures responds by becoming an even better lubricant!

Unfortunately, the end byproduct of this process is what we refer to as "varnish." So, you can't have everything, but you can come close by running a mixture of castor oil with polyalkylene glycol like Union Carbide's UCON, or their MA 731. This mixture has some synergistic properties, or better properties than either product had alone. As an interesting sidelight, castor oil can be stabilized to a degree by the addition of Vitamin E (Tocopherol) in small quantities, but if you make it too stable it would no longer offer the unusual high temperature protection that it did before.

Castor oil is not normally soluble in ordinary petroleum oils, but if you polymerize it for several hours at 300 degrees F (149 deg C), the polymerized oil becomes soluble. Hydrogenation achieves somewhat the same effect.

Castor oil has other unique properties. It is highly polar and has a great affinity for metal surfaces.

It has a flash point of only 445 degrees F (229 deg C), but its fire point is about 840 degrees F (449 deg C)! This is very unusual behavior if you consider that polyalkylene glycols flash at about 350-400 degrees F (176-204 deg C)and have a fire point of only about 550 degrees F (288 deg C), or slightly higher.

Nearly all of the common synthetics that we use burn in the combustion chamber if you get off too lean.

Castor oil does not, because it is busily forming more and more complex polymers as the temperature goes up. Most synthetics boil on the cylinder walls at temperatures slightly above their flash point. The same activity can take place in the wrist pin area, depending on engine design.

Synthetics also have another interesting feature - they would like to return to the materials from which they were made, usually things like ethylene oxide, complex alcohols, or other less suitable lubricants. This happens very rapidly when a critical temperature is reached. We call this phenomena "unzippering" for obvious reasons.

So, you have a choice. Run the engine too lean and it gets too hot. The synthetic burns or simply vaporizes, but castor oil decomposes into a soft varnish and a series of ester groups that still have powerful lubricity.

Good reason for a mix of the two lubricants! ( " 927 " is a mix as described here!)

In spite of all this, the synthetics are still excellent lubricants if you know their limitations and work within those limits. Used properly, engine life will be good with either product. Cooked on a lean run, castor oil will win every time. A mix of the two can give the best of both worlds.

Like most things in this old life, lubricants are always a compromise of good and bad properties. Synthetics yield a clean engine, while castor oil yields a dirty engine, but at least now you know why! "

Bert Striegler

Bert was the Sr. Research Eng'r. (ret.) at Conoco Oil Co.

Sounds VERY convincing doesn't it. I then decided to write owner of the Scamsoil site Brian Dobben an e-mail with links to the article above explaining the opposing views about synthetic oil and castor based oils to get his take on this subject and here is what he wrote me back :

Brian -
Sorry for the delay, but I hope you'll find "the wait was worth it". For "my take" on this subject & your questions, I would point out several things.

1.
Without a doubt, the oil industry, the "lubrication engineers", and the OEM's are dominated by mindsets created by two groups with agendas: the petroleum oil companies, and the OEM's. The oil companies want everyone to buy petroleum products. The OEM's want their products to last as long as most consumers think they should without breaking down, with warranty periods set shorter than that. For that reason, the petro companies have invested a great deal in their controlled versions of educating mechanics and dealers and engineers. In the glaring history of this situation, it's crazy to think that anyone can get an accurate picture without considering the perspective of the company considered to be the worldwide standard in synthetic lubrication. So I applaud you for wanting to investigate Amsoil.


2.
The API's agenda is written clearly for all to see, that they exist to promote petroleum interests. And it's very telling that their API starburst certification licensing program specifically excludes high performance lubricants, certifies only to bare minimum performance levels, and does not provide ANY method of rating the comparative performance of oils - even though the ASTM tests clearly provide measured values. You can do a search on "Amsoil Scam" and read a lot more I've written on this, in an extensive Q & A you'll see listed on my main website. This is a direct link to the page: http://www.ultimatesyntheticoil.com/Sca ... eptics.htm


3.
The main key to understanding the discussion of castor oil is the word "esters". Adding castor oil was, a decade or two ago, a good way to get improved performance in some 2-cycle applications where there weren't good products engineered yet. But as he notes, castor oil has a lot of content downside that can get you into trouble. Esters are a large group of lubricants that provide quite a range of performance in different lubrication applications. There is real value in getting certain advantages of specific forms of esters in engine lubrication, but the value is maximized when you deliberately engineer that chemistry so that you maximize your advantages while avoiding or minimizing any of the downside. And THAT is the thinking behind many of Amsoil's formulations, and a key to their dramatic superiority when compared to other synthetics. That is also the reason behind having multiple four-cycle oils, multiple diesel oils, and multiple 2-cycle oils: you optimize the performance of both the base stock and the additive package for the application(s) you are targeting. Many AMSOIL products have a small optimized amount of a pure ester type(s) whose performance has been selected as being nearly ideal for that particular application, bringing advantages while avoiding disadvantages.


For example, taking this overview down to where you "live" with your CR500... here's my newest website in development:

http://www.vtwin-hd.com/d.cgi/1220579/home.html

If you go there and click on the left hand button for "2 Cycle Oil", it takes you to a page comparing and listing the different Amsoil oils. You can click the link on each one for "more information", but even just reading the overviews you can understand what these oils are targeted for. The reason for these various formulations is that there are several ranges within 2-cycle applications for ring and piston loading, ring temperatures, combustion temperatures, exhaust valve temperatures, rpm range, and primary load/rpm use. Most synthetic companies make one product and imply that it's the best for every 2-cycle application, while the truth is that it's probably a performance compromise in all of them. All of that means that the AMSOIL product descriptions will give you a good idea of what's most likely to be the best formulation for your bike.

But it also means that depending on how your bike is "set up" and how you use and ride it, either Interceptor or Dominator could work the best for you. Either one WILL work, and if I were you and the product descriptions don't clearly address it for you, I would try both of them and see which one seems to perform best overall for your riding in the aspects that are most important to you. But having said that, if you run very high rpms at full load in a racing application with a highly modded engine, that's where Dominator could shine brightly for you.

For someone to say that an Amsoil 2-cycle product is "junk", simply means that the one they tried for that "bad experience" application wasn't a good match for the engine's needs in how it was being used. For example, the Canadian Forrestry Service standardized several years ago on Amsoil's Sabre Professional 100:1 for their chainsaws, and the performance in those applications is way beyond anything in the market, leading to lower fuel costs and tremendous increases in the service life... because that's exactly what it was designed for. However, that doesn't mean that the product will work well in a dirt bike, a snowmobile, or a jetski.

The fact of the matter is that over the last 5 years especially, Amsoil has completely taken over most of the competitive racing venues. Xcross, Motocross, Snocross, Champ boat, Offshore, Diesel competitions... you name it. And of course, Daytona Bike Week and Sturgis. It's not a matter of spending advertising dollars, but of Amsoil realizing that there is real value in them sponsoring these segments where 95% of all the competitors are using AMSOIL lubricants.

I've subscribed to Diesel Power mag since about its' third issue, and I found it interesting that in their coverage of last year's national Diesel Power Challenge, they happened to mention that every competitor in the event was running Amsoil. I find it interesting that the recognized national expert in high performance Corvette engines openly recommends Amsoil without advertising compensation. I find it interesting... well, I could go on for a long time.

I guess in concluding, I would make two points. First, a true synthetic is always better than a petroleum product. Second, when comparing performance among synthetics, only superior engineering will produce the superior results: there is nothing accidental about it, and the effectiveness of sex-based, ego-based or confidence-based marketing campaigns adds nothing to performance. For decades, the picture has never changed. Only Amsoil publishes their performance against competitors, and only Amsoil is constantly updating formulations to include the latest performance improvements in additive and basestock sciences.

Brian, don't forget to buy products at wholesale pricing. There are a couple of options, Preferred Customer membership being the secret that most dealers don't tell you about - details on this page:

http://www.ultimatesyntheticoil.com/dis ... nities.htm

Hope this has been very helpful. Let me know if you have further questions.

Best regards,

Brian Dobben - BSMET

DMT Technical
Ph (419) 630-0874
Cell (419) 551-4792
Find the Ultimate in synthetic oils and filters at
UltimateSyntheticOil.com

So there you have it, the two opposing views I found that were the most well written and factual. I guess the final choice is up to you as to what oil you choose to run. Personally I have been using Amsoil in everything I own for years and have zero complaints about Amsoil synthetic oils.

[AlisoBob]

This is one of my motors, after 4 years of '927 ( Castor/ Syn blend)

Zero wear on the bore / rod big end / piston.

Exhust port is spottless

You can even read the piston coding info.

Its all I'll ever run...... period.

[100hp honda]

flash points. not sure if higher or lower number is better

927= 420
benol= 555
r50= 550
amsoil dominator= 198
belray h1-r= 435
belray mc1= 208
redline= 217
torco gp-7= 165

[BrianPaul69]

I emailed Kenny at floteck performance last week about doing a little porting to my cylinder this winter and just got his reply back today.

I charge 180 to port the 500 and 80 to mod the head , i'm really backed up now though so it could be a good while before i can get to the build. other mods are lightning the flywheel (40) and a Nology high output coil and wire

Dennis Mears
4651 circle drive
Atlantic Pa.16111

I told him what I was going to do with the bike (not all out power just a nice smooth power band) but he didn't really give me any idea of what type of port he was going to do. I'm sure he much have varying degrees but never bothered to explain. Anyway he sounds really busy which is good but I don't know if I want to invest that much into my cylinder and head at this point. I'm also not sure what the (40) means regarding the flywheel... Anyone have any thoughts / feedback on the Nology coil and wire?

The bike has assloads of power already so I'll have to think on this one for a while.

[NightBiker07]

I can vouch for the 4 corner siezure you mentioned! My motor blew the base gasket, didnt notice it right away, until the engine started making horrid noise....shut her down immediately, and luckily didnt suffer any compression loss. but I can see the 4 points in the cylinder caused by the lean condition.

[atc Sanchez]

So what about us lazy people my bikes get parked wet and sit in the cold like Buffalo NY blizzard cold always heard castor breaks down in the cold over storage
What then?

[Roostius_Maximus]

my bikes are usually parked 7 months of the year. Luckily the pole saw and the snowblower are 2strokes and use up the old fuel. I do only run the torco synthetic GP-7 oil tho.