Cylinder Talk.....

All Engine, Clutch, Chains, and Sprockets Stuff Here.
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AlisoBob
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Cylinder Talk.....

Post by AlisoBob »

There has been alot of talk on cylinders lately..... Heres my stacked pennies...


Image

This is what you dont want to see........ notice the blowby streaking from every head stud location. This bore is shaped like a " Stop Sign".

Why? Mostly due to poor machining. I have seen several post's like " My buddy can bore and hone you jug for $35! ".... well you get what you pay for. At $35 the dude is making about $10 per hour. Pass.

Expect to pay about $60 or so for a Bore, Hone, Deburr, and Bridge Relief. And make sure the machinist uses a " Torque Plate" during the process. This is a thick plate that bolts on and simulates the cylinder head being installed during all the boring and honing operations. It stresses the cylinder to ensure its ROUND when all is said and done and the real cylinder head is bolted on. Its a very big deal if you want maximum power and longevity.

This is what a quality job looks like when you get it back.....
Image

Notice the "+" and "-" 45 degree crosshatch, and more importantly.. the shinyness of the cylinder. Sharp tooling and quality hones " Cut " the metal away..... dull and crappy tooling " Tears" it away, or folds it over and the cylinder will look....well...... dull.

The finish may look nearly the same to the eye, but under a microscope it would look freightening. Often folks talk about "Seating the Rings". If the bore is round, the finish done properly, and quality rings are used... there is no "Break in"... its done the instant you kick it over.....

" Why is blowby bad ?" Consider the only thing that lubes the skirt and helps seal the rings is blown away ( or consumed by heat) everytime the sparkplug fires..... now think of this happening over and over... micro -seizures start to develop... more blow by, bigger micro -siezures.... more blowby...... finally...... SQUEEK!

Forged pistons seem to suffer more blowby than cast... but crappy machinework is probably more the root cause......

For those looking for some bathroom reading... Here is a Copy /Paste from Group K Racing....

"Even among mechanics, there's plenty of confusion about what causes a particular piston to seize. This confusion is compounded when the mechanic only gets to see the remnants of the meltdown instead of the entire machine. The following information will help to dispel some myths, and shed some light on the understanding of piston seizures. The objective of this article is to make piston seizures a part of your past.

Some fundamentals many people believe that piston seizures occur when engine heat causes the piston to expand larger than the size of the cylinder bore .... This is not true. If you could freeze your engine "in motion" in the middle of a long full throttle pass, and disassemble it for micrometer measurement, you would find the piston to measure at a .0005" to .0015" press fit into the bore. That's right, a slight press fit! The reason that it doesn't seize is because the premix oil has such a terrific film strength that it acts as an unremovable buffer between the piston and the cylinder. That is, the bare metal surface of the piston never actually touches the bare metal surface of the cylinder because the oil stays between them. Many mechanics have experienced this phenomenon while cleaning a freshly bored cylinder. Completely dry without cleaning solvent, the piston moves through the bore with difficulty. After rinsing the piston glides all the way through with no resistance at all. This is because the solvent acts as a film between the piston and cylinder.

A piston seizure can only occur when something burns or scrapes away the oil film that exists between the piston and the cylinder wall. Understanding this, it's not hard to see why oils with exceptionally high film strengths are very desirable. Good quality oils can provide a film that stands up to the most intense heat and the pressure loads of a modern high output engine.

The difference between seizure and scoring Seizure and scoring are two different stages of the same problem. When the oil film on a cylinder is momentarily burned or brushed away, the metal surfaces of the piston and the cylinder wall will actually touch. When this happens, there is a sort of scraping that takes place between them. When the oil film is resumed, the marks from this scraping will often remain on the piston and (or) the cylinder wall. This momentary scraping or "scoring" seldom causes any permanent or performance robbing damage. No significant damage takes place because the oil film is resumed before the piston and cylinder have a chance to start exchanging material onto one another.

Scoring is commonly seen on the piston face directly below the piston ring end gaps. The blast of combustion can get between the large end gap of a worn out ring and burn the oil off the piston and cylinder in that area...Hence the surface scoring. In most cases, score marks can simply be sanded off of the piston and cylinder. However when ever you see scoring, it's a good idea to find the source so that it doesn't develop into a full blown seizure.

Seizure is a case of scoring where the oil film does not immediately return. After a few moments of constant scoring, the piston and cylinder will scratch each other hard enough to remove material from each other. This floating material grinds itself into the piston and the cylinder as it continues to grow in size. As this snowballing material grows, it will drive the opposite side of the piston against the cylinder wall with a pressure so terrific that scoring begins to take place. While all this is going on, your engine is still running wonderfully at full throttle.

The death blow comes when the mass of material between the piston and the cylinder wall finds it's way to the piston ring. This nearly molten mixture of aluminum and iron will instantly lock the ring in it's groove. This ring locking, not the piston surface seizure, is what actually causes your engine to quit. When the piston ring becomes locked back in it's groove, it's incapable of providing compression sealing against the cylinder wall. This instant loss of compression, while the engine is at speed, causes a dramatic loss of power. That power loss, along with the added drag of the badly seized piston, makes the engine quit or lock up in a nanosecond. In fact this entire seizure process, from the first scoring scratch to the piston locked solid, takes less than a second at full rpm. That's not even enough time for you to utter the first syllable of your favorite profanity.

There are many different causes or sources for piston seizure. Each cause has it's own symptoms and it's own visual results. The following is a description of several very common types of seizures, and the most common problem source for each one. It should be understood that diagnosing piston seizures is not done with any precision by even the best engine builders. However this information may allow many of you to make a more educated and accurate guess.

Four corner seizure This is by far the most common type of seizure found . Both sides of the piston will show heavy scoring and seizure marks on each side of the wrist pin hole. The pattern of these four seizure points often appears to be a perfect square, hence the slang term "four corner". The scoring takes place in this pattern because those areas of the piston casting are the thickest. When the piston is seriously overheated, the thick areas will expand and distort the most. High output motorcycle engines usually experience this type of seizure pattern when a piston has been fitted with too little clearance.



The engine factors that have the greatest seizure related effect on operating temperature or excessive compression ratio or ignition advance, high rpm, insufficient fuel octane level, insufficient cooling, or any combination of these. Properly adjusting these same factors will have the greatest effect on total power output. The job of the professional engine builder is to find the right combination, or "blend", of these factors that will result in strong overall power output at a pace that your cooling system can keep up with. There are many mechanics and engine builders who have mastered their own combination "blend" that can get you all the power your after without risking a seizure.

A group of mismatched modifications is a first class ticket to "seizure-land". Any inexperienced individual who sets up your engine with over 200 psi of compression and advanced timing, is also guaranteeing your arrival. If your big mouthed motorcycle buddy down the street tells you that he can make any engine "roost".... You should think twice. You could be in for a very expensive lesson.


The classic lean seizure exhibits heavy scoring and seizure along the entire width of the exhaust port with only light scoring on the opposite piston faces. In lean mixture conditions, the exhaust gas temperatures escalate quickly into the meltdown stage. Those high temperature gases can compromise or completely burn off the oil film on the exhaust piston face as the exhaust port is being covered up. With the oil film weakened or gone, scoring quickly turns into seizure and ring locking.


In any situation where an engine has seized for no apparent reason, the motor should be pressure tested before any other teardown work is performed. If a mechanic does not have the equipment to pressure test your seized engine, it's very unlikely that he will have the finesse to accurately diagnose your problem either. In fact, pressure testing should be a standard finishing procedure for any major engine reassembly work. Race engines should be pressure tested no less than every 20 operating hours.

The air leak piston seizure, depending on the severity of the leak, can look like a four corner type or a lean mixture type of scoring pattern. If an engine is operating on the ragged edge of overheating, a small air leak can easily cause the extra overheating that will result in a four corner seizure. On the other hand, a huge air leak will draw in so much additional air that even an over rich engine can experience a lean type seizure at full rpm's.

Detonation seizures If a modified engine has been prepared with too much compression or spark advance, or if it's run on unacceptably low octane fuel, it will begin to "ping" or detonate. Detonation is a big subject the merits another article of it's own. For now we only need to understand that it causes a terrific amount of internal heat in a very short time, as well as physical damage to the combustion chamber. If you have ever seen the outer diameter of a cylinder head dome that looks as if it's been eaten by termites, you have seen the results of detonation. It packs a physical force that is roughly equivalent to hitting the edge of the piston crown with a full arm swing of a ball peen hammer. In a short amount of time, this detonation pounding will collapse the ring land and lock the ring in place (usually on the hotter running exhaust side of the piston). As soon as the ring is locked, the flames of combustion burn the oil film off of the cylinder wall, and the scoring/ seizure process begins. Because of the exhaust side scoring and the swift overheating caused by detonation, you'll have a 50/50 chance of a four corner seizure or a "lean mixture" appearing seizure.



Piston clearances As mentioned earlier, too little piston clearance is one of the most common " wrong " diagnoses made . Most of today's motors come brand new with cylinder clearances that are .001"-.002" over the recommended factory setup clearance. This extra clearance is an added protection against riders who don't follow the proper break-in procedure. If the clearance of a bored cylinder has been set at the factory recommended clearance, the close piston clearance by itself will not cause seizure. There is usually an added factor such as excessive compression or an air leak. If a piston if fitted with too little clearance, it will usually experience a four corner type seizure pattern. In most cases the ring will experience little or no damage. If this is the case, it's entirely safe to sand the score marks off the pistons and re-use them in the freshly honed cylinder.

Too much piston clearance can also result in piston scoring and seizure. A piston ring, in an excessively large cylinder bore, will have a very wide end gap not to mention very weak ring tension against the cylinder wall. The flame of combustion can easily burn past this weak ring seal as well as down the end gap opening itself. If this flame burns off a significant amount of the oil film on the cylinder wall, the scoring seizure process begins. Piston seizure caused by excessive clearance is much more common than you might think.


Lubrication related seizures By now it's apparent how important the oil film strength can be. Equally important is the amount of oil that is present in the engine. Most engines carry factory recommendations for oil premix ratios between 40:1 and 50:1. For the rpm's and operating temperatures of a stock engine, these mix ratios work fine. However if your rpm range is significantly raised by aftermarket modifications or bolt ons, you may need to increase your mix ratio slightly.

The total amount of time that it takes for a drop of oil to get from the carburetor, to the lower end bearings, to the top end, and out the exhaust port is called "oil migration time". As peak rpms increase, the amount of time that a drop of oil remains inside the engine is drastically shorter. In other words, a 9000 rpm race engine would need a mix ratio of about 32:1 to maintain the same internal lubrication presence that a stocker would have with a 50:1 mix. There are several oil brands that claim that their oil can provide equal lubrication at a leaner mix ratio (60:1 or 80:1) because of a claimed better lubrication quality. In my 20 years of working on racing motors, I have never experienced this to be true nor has any oil manufacturer, to my knowledge, proven it to be true. It's like running your truck on two quarts of a special oil instead of four quarts of a standard type oil. The quality cannot make up for the quantity.....Ever.

Fables and untruths cold seizure - this is by far the most over used "seizure scape goat". It some how implies that the rider ran his engine in a way that caused the failure. At least 95% of the "so called" cold seized engines that I've seen have had a very apparent problem else where in the engine that the original technician failed to see. Telling a customer that he cold seized the engine is an easy way for a mechanic to immediately reverse the guilt and the responsibility.

If a freshly bored engine or a high performance engine were started from stone cold, and then run hard at high rpm within 30 seconds of the start up, it could very likely experience a true cold seizure. This happens because the aluminum piston would experience a radically faster rate of expansion in that 30 seconds than the cylinder does. The reason for this difference in expansion rate is two fold.

First and foremost, the internal temperatures that the piston crown is exposed to at full load are on the order of 800'f -1100' f. The gases passing through the exhaust manifold ports is also in this 800'-1100' temperature range. The expansion rate caused by these temperatures is usually not a problem when the water entering the exhaust manifold is being preheated by the very hot exhaust port passages. However in the first 30 - 50 seconds of operation, these internal exhaust ports have not yet absorbed the heat that's needed to properly pre heat the cold incoming water. During the first 30 operating seconds, this cold incoming water will briefly maintain the water jacket around the cylinder at "stone cold diameter" while the piston is becoming "full temperature diameter". On engines with properly sized pistons, the difference in these diameters becomes much more than even the best oils can withstand. Any engine that has been warmed up for 60 seconds or longer, would be virtually incapable of a "cold seizure".


Me again....

Notice the one common thread of ALL siezure types is the breakdown of the oil film. This is why so many Hoons insist on running CASTOR oil products. No other oil can match the film stregnth, this is something even the Synthetic companies will admit. If avoiding siezures is all about film stregnth, well......, I guess you know what oil you need to run ......

Any other questions regarding cylinder prep and oil selection?
crflattracker
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Joined: January 14th, 2009, 1:58 pm

Post by crflattracker »

hogwash piston swelling will cause siezure that is why forged piston needs more clearance than cast. if you have a new cyl. and new piston of the nearly the same size piston will slide through dry but if you oil the cyl. wont firt no more you need clearance for the oil.
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AlisoBob
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Post by AlisoBob »

crflattracker wrote: piston will slide through dry but if you oil the cyl. wont firt no more you need clearance for the oil.
:roll:
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TYSTYX
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Post by TYSTYX »

:lol:
99 CR500R
2006 Honda CBR 1000RR Fireblade

My Drinking team has a Racing problem !

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CR500R7
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Post by CR500R7 »

Don't worry Bob, you can't help people who think they know everything. :roll:
Before you can learn something, first you have to be willing to learn. :wink:
I am sure it is known as, to have an open mind. :idea:
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ScooterCR500
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Post by ScooterCR500 »

CR500R7 wrote:Don't worry Bob, you can't help people who think they know everything. :roll:
Before you can learn something, first you have to be willing to learn. :wink:
I am sure it is known as, to have an open mind. :idea:
X2!
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gman1966347
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Post by gman1966347 »

I did'nt notice anything on a finish silicone carbide brush finish hone.Which is normally used on a chromoly ring package to help a quick seat.That silicone carbide finish hone will remove any hi spots left from the finish stone,unless they are useing cast rings? Just curious,I find it very intresting.
BrianPaul69
Posts: 110
Joined: September 11th, 2010, 3:01 pm
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Re: Cylinder Talk.....

Post by BrianPaul69 »

AlisoBob wrote:There has been alot of talk on cylinders lately..... Heres my stacked pennies...


Image
This is what you dont want to see........ notice the blowby streaking from every head stud location. This bore is shaped like a " Stop Sign".

Why? Mostly due to poor machining. I have seen several post's like " My buddy can bore and hone you jug for $35! ".... well you get what you pay for. At $35 the dude is making about $10 per hour. Pass.

Expect to pay about $60 or so for a Bore, Hone, Deburr, and Bridge Relief. And make sure the machinist uses a " Torque Plate" during the process. This is a thick plate that bolts on and simulates the cylinder head being installed during all the boring and honing operations. It stresses the cylinder to ensure its ROUND when all is said and done and the real cylinder head is bolted on. Its a very big deal if you want maximum power and longevity.
I agree with this 100%!! If you have a jackleg machinist bore and hone your cylinder then you are going to get what you pay for. Cylinder bore size, roundness and finish is critical in any engine not only for the rings to seal properly but for the piston to run true in the bore. To big a bore and the piston will be slapping round causing damage and the rings will not sit flush against the cylinder wall to maintain a good seal. Also running too much piston to wall clearance causes the ring end gap to increase by Pi (╥) or 3.14159265 for every .001" of bore clearance. So if your $35.00 guy accidentally hones the bore oversize by .0015" he just totally screwed up your ring gap too.


This is what a quality job looks like when you get it back.....
Image

Notice the "+" and "-" 45 degree crosshatch, and more importantly.. the shinyness of the cylinder. Sharp tooling and quality hones " Cut " the metal away..... dull and crappy tooling " Tears" it away, or folds it over and the cylinder will look....well...... dull.

The finish may look nearly the same to the eye, but under a microscope it would look freightening. Often folks talk about "Seating the Rings". If the bore is round, the finish done properly, and quality rings are used... there is no "Break in"... its done the instant you kick it over.....

" Why is blowby bad ?" Consider the only thing that lubes the skirt and helps seal the rings is blown away ( or consumed by heat) everytime the sparkplug fires..... now think of this happening over and over... micro -seizures start to develop... more blow by, bigger micro -siezures.... more blowby...... finally...... SQUEEK!
Forged pistons seem to suffer more blowby than cast... but crappy machinework is probably more the root cause......
Your wrong about forged pistons suffering more blowby than cast just because they are forged. Yes a cast piston doesn't grow as much with heat as a forged piston so you need to be more careful to follow proper warmup procedures with a forged piston. Once the bike is warmed up nothing beats a forged piston. Forged pistons also have the clearance built into them so you still finish the cylinder bore off to its recommended size. The guys that don't understand this concept are the ones who hone an extra .0015" ~ .002" into the bore and then don't realize it also opens up the rings another .0047" ~ .0063" and there's your blowby. It also causes the forged piston to start rocking around in the bore and cocking the rings on the cylinder wall which further complicates the problem of them sealing properly.

For those looking for some bathroom reading... Here is a Copy /Paste from Group K Racing....

"Even among mechanics, there's plenty of confusion about what causes a particular piston to seize. This confusion is compounded when the mechanic only gets to see the remnants of the meltdown instead of the entire machine. The following information will help to dispel some myths, and shed some light on the understanding of piston seizures. The objective of this article is to make piston seizures a part of your past.
Some fundamentals many people believe that piston seizures occur when engine heat causes the piston to expand larger than the size of the cylinder bore .... This is not true. If you could freeze your engine "in motion" in the middle of a long full throttle pass, and disassemble it for micrometer measurement, you would find the piston to measure at a .0005" to .0015" press fit into the bore. That's right, a slight press fit! The reason that it doesn't seize is because the premix oil has such a terrific film strength that it acts as an unremovable buffer between the piston and the cylinder. That is, the bare metal surface of the piston never actually touches the bare metal surface of the cylinder because the oil stays between them. Many mechanics have experienced this phenomenon while cleaning a freshly bored cylinder. Completely dry without cleaning solvent, the piston moves through the bore with difficulty. After rinsing the piston glides all the way through with no resistance at all. This is because the solvent acts as a film between the piston and cylinder.



From my own experiences over the past 25 years building drag race engines and from talking with companies like Wiseco and JE just to name a few this statement is total bullshit. A piston never grows larger than the bore it is in, that is the reason the piston manufacturers give you a recommended piston to wall clearance. I would really like to hear his proof and facts showing where he came to this conclusion. His piston sliding up and down the bore in the cleaning solvent is a HUGE leap to explaining his theory. Sorry, I still call bullshit.

A piston seizure can only occur when something burns or scrapes away the oil film that exists between the piston and the cylinder wall. Understanding this, it's not hard to see why oils with exceptionally high film strengths are very desirable. Good quality oils can provide a film that stands up to the most intense heat and the pressure loads of a modern high output engine.


I agree with this completely and most of what is said from here on down. As far as pre-mix oils I'm still leaning more toward full synthetic oils over the castor based oils just because of what I have seen in the 4 stroke V8 engines I have built over the years. I have run Amsoil in all my 2 strokes with great success. Considering the premix also lubricates the bottom end bearings and Amsoil's exceptional load carrying abilities I'm very hesitant to use anything else at this point.


The difference between seizure and scoring Seizure and scoring are two different stages of the same problem. When the oil film on a cylinder is momentarily burned or brushed away, the metal surfaces of the piston and the cylinder wall will actually touch. When this happens, there is a sort of scraping that takes place between them. When the oil film is resumed, the marks from this scraping will often remain on the piston and (or) the cylinder wall. This momentary scraping or "scoring" seldom causes any permanent or performance robbing damage. No significant damage takes place because the oil film is resumed before the piston and cylinder have a chance to start exchanging material onto one another.

Scoring is commonly seen on the piston face directly below the piston ring end gaps. The blast of combustion can get between the large end gap of a worn out ring and burn the oil off the piston and cylinder in that area...Hence the surface scoring. In most cases, score marks can simply be sanded off of the piston and cylinder. However when ever you see scoring, it's a good idea to find the source so that it doesn't develop into a full blown seizure.

Seizure is a case of scoring where the oil film does not immediately return. After a few moments of constant scoring, the piston and cylinder will scratch each other hard enough to remove material from each other. This floating material grinds itself into the piston and the cylinder as it continues to grow in size. As this snowballing material grows, it will drive the opposite side of the piston against the cylinder wall with a pressure so terrific that scoring begins to take place. While all this is going on, your engine is still running wonderfully at full throttle.

The death blow comes when the mass of material between the piston and the cylinder wall finds it's way to the piston ring. This nearly molten mixture of aluminum and iron will instantly lock the ring in it's groove. This ring locking, not the piston surface seizure, is what actually causes your engine to quit. When the piston ring becomes locked back in it's groove, it's incapable of providing compression sealing against the cylinder wall. This instant loss of compression, while the engine is at speed, causes a dramatic loss of power. That power loss, along with the added drag of the badly seized piston, makes the engine quit or lock up in a nanosecond. In fact this entire seizure process, from the first scoring scratch to the piston locked solid, takes less than a second at full rpm. That's not even enough time for you to utter the first syllable of your favorite profanity.

There are many different causes or sources for piston seizure. Each cause has it's own symptoms and it's own visual results. The following is a description of several very common types of seizures, and the most common problem source for each one. It should be understood that diagnosing piston seizures is not done with any precision by even the best engine builders. However this information may allow many of you to make a more educated and accurate guess.

Four corner seizure This is by far the most common type of seizure found . Both sides of the piston will show heavy scoring and seizure marks on each side of the wrist pin hole. The pattern of these four seizure points often appears to be a perfect square, hence the slang term "four corner". The scoring takes place in this pattern because those areas of the piston casting are the thickest. When the piston is seriously overheated, the thick areas will expand and distort the most. High output motorcycle engines usually experience this type of seizure pattern when a piston has been fitted with too little clearance.



The engine factors that have the greatest seizure related effect on operating temperature or excessive compression ratio or ignition advance, high rpm, insufficient fuel octane level, insufficient cooling, or any combination of these. Properly adjusting these same factors will have the greatest effect on total power output. The job of the professional engine builder is to find the right combination, or "blend", of these factors that will result in strong overall power output at a pace that your cooling system can keep up with. There are many mechanics and engine builders who have mastered their own combination "blend" that can get you all the power your after without risking a seizure.

A group of mismatched modifications is a first class ticket to "seizure-land". Any inexperienced individual who sets up your engine with over 200 psi of compression and advanced timing, is also guaranteeing your arrival. If your big mouthed motorcycle buddy down the street tells you that he can make any engine "roost".... You should think twice. You could be in for a very expensive lesson.


The classic lean seizure exhibits heavy scoring and seizure along the entire width of the exhaust port with only light scoring on the opposite piston faces. In lean mixture conditions, the exhaust gas temperatures escalate quickly into the meltdown stage. Those high temperature gases can compromise or completely burn off the oil film on the exhaust piston face as the exhaust port is being covered up. With the oil film weakened or gone, scoring quickly turns into seizure and ring locking.


In any situation where an engine has seized for no apparent reason, the motor should be pressure tested before any other teardown work is performed. If a mechanic does not have the equipment to pressure test your seized engine, it's very unlikely that he will have the finesse to accurately diagnose your problem either. In fact, pressure testing should be a standard finishing procedure for any major engine reassembly work. Race engines should be pressure tested no less than every 20 operating hours.

The air leak piston seizure, depending on the severity of the leak, can look like a four corner type or a lean mixture type of scoring pattern. If an engine is operating on the ragged edge of overheating, a small air leak can easily cause the extra overheating that will result in a four corner seizure. On the other hand, a huge air leak will draw in so much additional air that even an over rich engine can experience a lean type seizure at full rpm's.
Detonation seizures If a modified engine has been prepared with too much compression or spark advance, or if it's run on unacceptably low octane fuel, it will begin to "ping" or detonate. Detonation is a big subject the merits another article of it's own. For now we only need to understand that it causes a terrific amount of internal heat in a very short time, as well as physical damage to the combustion chamber. If you have ever seen the outer diameter of a cylinder head dome that looks as if it's been eaten by termites, you have seen the results of detonation. It packs a physical force that is roughly equivalent to hitting the edge of the piston crown with a full arm swing of a ball peen hammer. In a short amount of time, this detonation pounding will collapse the ring land and lock the ring in place (usually on the hotter running exhaust side of the piston). As soon as the ring is locked, the flames of combustion burn the oil film off of the cylinder wall, and the scoring/ seizure process begins. Because of the exhaust side scoring and the swift overheating caused by detonation, you'll have a 50/50 chance of a four corner seizure or a "lean mixture" appearing seizure.

This whole paragraph is VERY well put. Detonation may be like a ball peen hammer in a two stroke but in a 500ci big block making 800+ hp its like a sledgehammer on top of the piston. Where you have roller bearings in the 2 stroke a V8 has a much more delicate type of engine bearing that is literally squashed flat under heavy detonation. The piston in the 2 stroke is really what takes the most damage and detonation on a cast piston is almost instant death where forged pistons are a little more forgiving. Forged pistons can usually take the abuse a little longer giving you a chance to get your tune up right.


Piston clearances As mentioned earlier, too little piston clearance is one of the most common " wrong " diagnoses made . Most of today's motors come brand new with cylinder clearances that are .001"-.002" over the recommended factory setup clearance. This extra clearance is an added protection against riders who don't follow the proper break-in procedure. If the clearance of a bored cylinder has been set at the factory recommended clearance, the close piston clearance by itself will not cause seizure. There is usually an added factor such as excessive compression or an air leak. If a piston if fitted with too little clearance, it will usually experience a four corner type seizure pattern. In most cases the ring will experience little or no damage. If this is the case, it's entirely safe to sand the score marks off the pistons and re-use them in the freshly honed cylinder.

Too much piston clearance can also result in piston scoring and seizure. A piston ring, in an excessively large cylinder bore, will have a very wide end gap not to mention very weak ring tension against the cylinder wall. The flame of combustion can easily burn past this weak ring seal as well as down the end gap opening itself. If this flame burns off a significant amount of the oil film on the cylinder wall, the scoring seizure process begins. Piston seizure caused by excessive clearance is much more common than you might think.


Lubrication related seizures By now it's apparent how important the oil film strength can be. Equally important is the amount of oil that is present in the engine. Most engines carry factory recommendations for oil premix ratios between 40:1 and 50:1. For the rpm's and operating temperatures of a stock engine, these mix ratios work fine. However if your rpm range is significantly raised by aftermarket modifications or bolt ons, you may need to increase your mix ratio slightly.

The total amount of time that it takes for a drop of oil to get from the carburetor, to the lower end bearings, to the top end, and out the exhaust port is called "oil migration time". As peak rpms increase, the amount of time that a drop of oil remains inside the engine is drastically shorter. In other words, a 9000 rpm race engine would need a mix ratio of about 32:1 to maintain the same internal lubrication presence that a stocker would have with a 50:1 mix.
There are several oil brands that claim that their oil can provide equal lubrication at a leaner mix ratio (60:1 or 80:1) because of a claimed better lubrication quality. In my 20 years of working on racing motors, I have never experienced this to be true nor has any oil manufacturer, to my knowledge, proven it to be true. It's like running your truck on two quarts of a special oil instead of four quarts of a standard type oil. The quality cannot make up for the quantity.....Ever.

I don't understand or agree with his logic here, your truck can't run on 2 quarts of oil because the oil pickup tube won't be able to reach the oil. I can't even come up with an analogy that would be in line with his thinking here because it just doesn't make any sense. Synthetic oils have become so advanced in the past 20 years that he has been doing whatever it is hes doing that they are engineered to protect engines using very small amounts of oil. I run Amsoil at 80:1 mix and have zero negative affects. I was told about something today called the Project 250 where they run their Yamaha YZ250 at a 200:1 ratio. I have to read into it to see what they are doing.

Fables and untruths cold seizure - this is by far the most over used "seizure scape goat". It some how implies that the rider ran his engine in a way that caused the failure. At least 95% of the "so called" cold seized engines that I've seen have had a very apparent problem else where in the engine that the original technician failed to see. Telling a customer that he cold seized the engine is an easy way for a mechanic to immediately reverse the guilt and the responsibility.

If a freshly bored engine or a high performance engine were started from stone cold, and then run hard at high rpm within 30 seconds of the start up, it could very likely experience a true cold seizure. This happens because the aluminum piston would experience a radically faster rate of expansion in that 30 seconds than the cylinder does. The reason for this difference in expansion rate is two fold.

First and foremost, the internal temperatures that the piston crown is exposed to at full load are on the order of 800'f -1100' f. The gases passing through the exhaust manifold ports is also in this 800'-1100' temperature range. The expansion rate caused by these temperatures is usually not a problem when the water entering the exhaust manifold is being preheated by the very hot exhaust port passages. However in the first 30 - 50 seconds of operation, these internal exhaust ports have not yet absorbed the heat that's needed to properly pre heat the cold incoming water. During the first 30 operating seconds, this cold incoming water will briefly maintain the water jacket around the cylinder at "stone cold diameter" while the piston is becoming "full temperature diameter". On engines with properly sized pistons, the difference in these diameters becomes much more than even the best oils can withstand. Any engine that has been warmed up for 60 seconds or longer, would be virtually incapable of a "cold seizure".


Me again....

Notice the one common thread of ALL siezure types is the breakdown of the oil film. This is why so many Hoons insist on running CASTOR oil products. No other oil can match the film stregnth, this is something even the Synthetic companies will admit. If avoiding siezures is all about film stregnth, well......, I guess you know what oil you need to run ......

Any other questions regarding cylinder prep and oil selection?
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Post by Roostius_Maximus »

the ring end-gap doesnt mean much either, many tests have been done showing that end gaps up to even .100" made no difference in compression or crankcase pressure a 4" bore small block chevy.
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Post by BrianPaul69 »

Roostius_Maximus wrote:the ring end-gap doesnt mean much either, many tests have been done showing that end gaps up to even .100" made no difference in compression or crankcase pressure a 4" bore small block chevy.
I can agree with you completely in regard to a 4 stroke automotive engine. A good friend of mine who has been building race engines for close to 35 years knew John Lingenfelter personally back in the day. John did extensive dyno testing on all types of 4 stroke racing engines and according to John there was no noticable power loss until the ring end gap reached .060" and even after that the power loss was very minimal.

I don't on the other hand have any personal experience with 2 stroke ring end gaps but I would imagine the principle is somewhat the same. The part I don't fully understand is the affect of the ports in the cylinders vs valves in relation to the intake, combustion and exhaust process. In a 4 stroke the rings never leave the cylinder at any point in the stroke but in a 2 stroke the rings are exposed as they pass by the ports. Not the ring gaps per se but the ring face itself.

The other grey area I have is the lubrication. A 4 stroke has an oil ring and the oil is pretty much pumped and slung around in the crankcase to lubricate the cylinder walls and internal parts. There is also quite a bit of oil in a 4 stroke oiling system which is cooled by the surrounding water jackets. A 2 stroke on the other hand has very little oil for lubrication and relies solely on the oil in the premix to lubricate everything in the crank / piston area. The oil also relies completely on the coolant in the cylinder / head and the air / fuel ratio to maintain its desired operating temperature. A 2 stroke just seems to have a lot more critical parameters that we need to stay within for them to run efficiently and safely not to mention to make good power.

I talked with Wiseco not long ago about all this and they claim to have about 8 bikes that they run tests on. I was told the testing is done under a load at wide open throttle for 8 hours. After that the engine is torn down and inspected and thats how they gather their data. The guy I was talking to sort of stressed the importance of piston to wall clearances and the ring end gap not getting too far out of their specified range. I guess thats what they are suppose to tell people because the parts they sell need to come with a specific tolerance for people to follow.

There sure is a lot to learn about the two stroke engine but they are truely a facinating creature.
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Post by Roostius_Maximus »

obviously they werent dyno testing their own products, or 4 stroke mx bikes. :roll:
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Post by AlisoBob »

BrianPaul69 wrote:The other grey area I have is the lubrication.....
If you evet took apart a CR500 running on 925' @ 40:1... even WEEKS after its been sitting.... its slathered in oil.

Also , the blowby I was referring to isnt whats blowing past the ring gap, I'm talking all around the perimeter of the piston.

TONS of Wiscos show this , hardly any cast ones have.

TVOE
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Post by AlisoBob »

BrianPaul69 wrote:The part I don't fully understand is the affect of the ports in the cylinders vs valves in relation to the intake, combustion and exhaust process.
The downward travel of the piston from TDC forces the air fuel mix sitting in the crankcase up into the cylinder. ALL the ports are wide open at this point, and primary compression has forced the reeds shut. Some mixture goes up into the cylinder, some goes out the pipe. This is a good thing on a two stroke......

The piston is at BDC now and is starting its way back up the cylinder. About 1/2 way back up the intake ports close, but the exhaust is still open. This isnt to push even more mixture out the exhaust, for the tuned pipe is acting like a supercharger now and is forcing the expelled air / fuel mix back in the cylinder... Yea, no shit!!!!

As the piston rises further the reeds are open now below the piston, refilling the crankcase with Air / Fuel.

The exhaust port finally closes and the piston builds mechanical compression pressure now as it nears TDC for the plug to fire. At TDC you have ignition for the power stroke, the crankcase has refilled, the sonic wave is going down the pipe to bounce back up sometime in the near future, and considerable roost from the rear tire is flying in the face of the guy behind you.

Its a beautiful thing...
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Post by AlisoBob »

BrianPaul69 wrote:...there was no noticable power loss until the ring end gap reached .060" and even after that the power loss was very minimal.
Image

All my comp eliminator buddies have returned to 3 ring pistons, and they run the 2nd ring gap TWICE as big as the top ring.

Pressure trapped under the top ring is the HP killer.....
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Post by BrianPaul69 »

AlisoBob wrote:
BrianPaul69 wrote:The other grey area I have is the lubrication.....
If you evet took apart a CR500 running on 925' @ 40:1... even WEEKS after its been sitting.... its slathered in oil.

Also , the blowby I was referring to isnt whats blowing past the ring gap, I'm talking all around the perimeter of the piston.

TONS of Wiscos show this , hardly any cast ones have.

TVOE
I'm sorry for the lack of attention on my part to what I was trying to say. I was quoting the guy who wrote the article you posted talking about combustion gasses passing the ring gaps :
Scoring is commonly seen on the piston face directly below the piston ring end gaps. The blast of combustion can get between the large end gap of a worn out ring and burn the oil off the piston and cylinder in that area...Hence the surface scoring.
What you were saying about the tons of Wiseco pistons you have seen showing blowby wouldn't necessarily be the fault of the piston or the rings. The piston itself has little to do with sealing in the cylinder and ideally it should never make contact with the cylinder wall. The piston just holds the rings in place and keeps them properly positioned so they can seal against the cylinder wall.

With that said three things can be concluded :

1.) The cylinder was not properly prepped and the surface finish was not suitable for the rings to seal.

2.) The rings themselves are either defective or poorly designed for the application.

3.) The pistons ring lands were improperly machined and the rings are not being supported properly to create a good seal.

I think I would have to look very closely at #1 which goes right back to what you initially said in the first paragraph of this post and I agree with you on that 100% :
This is what you dont want to see........ notice the blowby streaking from every head stud location. This bore is shaped like a " Stop Sign".

Why? Mostly due to poor machining. I have seen several post's like " My buddy can bore and hone you jug for $35! ".... well you get what you pay for. At $35 the dude is making about $10 per hour. Pass.

Expect to pay about $60 or so for a Bore, Hone, Deburr, and Bridge Relief. And make sure the machinist uses a " Torque Plate" during the process. This is a thick plate that bolts on and simulates the cylinder head being installed during all the boring and honing operations. It stresses the cylinder to ensure its ROUND when all is said and done and the real cylinder head is bolted on. Its a very big deal if you want maximum power and longevity.
I would be willing to bet the majority of people that own these bikes don't have the resources to do their own work or even check behind the work they get back from their machine shop. Even something that looks great to the eye can be a very bad job and cause the rings to fail.

I also heard guys talking about buying an inexpensive dial bore gage. Honestly I wouldn't waste the money on that Chinese junk unless you can find a good used Mitutoyo or Federal unit on e-bay for a good price. Then you need a micrometer to set the bore gage and be compent enough to use it. I've also seen those Chinese units give very inaccurate readings of .002" and more which defeats the purpose of buying one. The feelier gage method is a very poor way to check clearances but still better than an inaccurate bore gage. The best suggestion is to find a shop with a well know reputation and pay the extra bucks and have it done right.

Anyway, I just find it very hard to believe that a company like Wiseco can stay in business very long by selling a product like a piston or a set of rings that is not capable of performing its function.
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Post by BrianPaul69 »

AlisoBob wrote:
BrianPaul69 wrote:...there was no noticable power loss until the ring end gap reached .060" and even after that the power loss was very minimal.
Image

All my comp eliminator buddies have returned to 3 ring pistons, and they run the 2nd ring gap TWICE as big as the top ring.

Pressure trapped under the top ring is the HP killer.....
Sweet setup, I really miss being around the drag race scene but its a VERY expensive hobby and even more expensive if you do it for a living. Since I moved here to North Carolina I have only been to the drag strip twice.

I believe what you just said "Pressure trapped under the top ring is the HP killer....." is why the Total Seal rings are not desireable. They actually trap the combustion gasses between the first and second (scraper) ring causing the oil ring to not function properly. On a 4 stroke oil in the combustion chamber is a real HP killer.....
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Post by AlisoBob »

BrianPaul69 wrote:. On a 4 stroke oil in the combustion chamber is a real HP killer.....
Hellz Ya'z...
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Post by AlisoBob »

Image


Ask Roosty reeeeeeeeal nice, and he will give you the special " Anti-Gravity" bore job.

Easy 8 hp , right there....

For $29.99 more, you can get the "Cheeze Grader" bore finish too.


Image
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Post by 100hp honda »

interesting stuff about bore gauges and indicators. the swiss seem to be ahead of everyone else when it comes to making high precision measuring instriments

http://www.longislandindicator.com/p14.html

http://www.longislandindicator.com/p8.html
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Post by BrianPaul69 »

AlisoBob wrote:Image


Ask Roosty reeeeeeeeal nice, and he will give you the special " Anti-Gravity" bore job.

Easy 8 hp , right there....

For $29.99 more, you can get the "Cheeze Grader" bore finish too.


Image

That brings back a memory of a KTM 500 I had back in the day way before internet. I can't remember the year of the bike exactly but it was liquid cooled. I still lived up in Pennsylvania back then and the only place that I could get parts was Santich Cycle in Plains I believe. The guy did his own machine work so I bought a piston from him and had him sleeve the cylinder. He did a great job on installing the sleeve but I swear to you he handed me back the cylinder and it looked worse than that one. There was no hone whatsoever just the rough bore from the boring bar. I can remember it like it was yesterday, he stood there scratching his finger nail up and down inside the bore while he told me with a serious face it might take a few sets of rings to smooth out the bore and get the rings to seat in good. WTF!!!??? I was like 16 and I knew better than that. I just took everything out of there and had to pay another place to finish honing it out. If I remember correctly it barely cleaned up because the dickweed bored it almost right to size. Till this day I don't know if the guy was that F'N stupid or if he just saw a dumb kid and figured he could screw me out of a few hundred more dollars when it blew up again. Needless to say I never went back in that jacklegs shop again.
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Post by AlisoBob »

BrianPaul69 wrote: If I remember correctly it barely cleaned up because the dickweed bored it almost right to size. Till this day I don't know if the guy was that F'N stupid or if he just saw a dumb kid and figured he could screw me out of a few hundred more dollars when it blew up again. Needless to say I never went back in that jacklegs shop again.
His name wasnt Glen, was it??

( Obviously that work isnt Roosty's either... :wink: )
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Post by BrianPaul69 »

AlisoBob wrote:
BrianPaul69 wrote: If I remember correctly it barely cleaned up because the dickweed bored it almost right to size. Till this day I don't know if the guy was that F'N stupid or if he just saw a dumb kid and figured he could screw me out of a few hundred more dollars when it blew up again. Needless to say I never went back in that jacklegs shop again.
His name wasnt Glen, was it??

( Obviously that work isnt Roosty's either... :wink: )
Glen doesn't ring a bell, it might have been Dave but it was about 20 years ago last time I saw the guy. He was in his mid 40's I would guess at that time and I think he mostly raced hair scrambles around the area. His shop was always full of old bikes he was selling, mostly Husky's, Maico's, KTM's and the like asking more than twice what they were worth and not a customer in sight when you walked in. He had this friggin German Sheppard sneaking around behind the counter that would scare the shit outta you every time you walked up. I would always forget about that damn dog and he'd get me every time. After his dog nearly gave you a heart attack THEN he'd come walking out from the back. I think he enjoyed it to be honest.

Yeah, I sorta figured that wasn't Roosty's work. LOL... but it could be Santich trying to make a comeback.... :D
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Post by blownbillybob »

AlisoBob wrote:

Image

Why do you think glen had to drill so many holes in his pistons, to keep oil in between the piston and cyl. Other wise the piston is going to scuff people thought it was some high tech race shit all it was,was a crutch and a quick fix for a bad bore&hone job, he probably thought the extra roughness will keep oil in the cyl like most people would think but it's the opposite that's why a proper plateau finish is critical on a 2 stroke. The recent pics of Gorrs hone job ain't all that great either!! With the wright finish you should be able to run tighter piston-wall clearances From what most shops run,and I'm not saying tighter then what the Manu. Calls for,I just did a Pro-x at .0025 the Manu. Calls for .002 min. Other people were saying .003-.0035 ,I'm going to start tighting up on the wiescos (on my own shit first)
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Post by Roostius_Maximus »

the new wiseco might work with tighter clearence, the skirt is thicker and a reasonably even thickness, the old ones were different sizes everyhwere and expanded queer
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Post by blownbillybob »

I don't know what bore size that cyl is in the pics but look how the sleeve bottle necks down as it goes around towards the transfers, that shit looks like it's going to crack off !!! I've seen broken ones before but on the intake side. Scrap it !!!!
00'cr500 trailclimber
93'cr500 beater
92'cr500 hillclimber
08,KTM SR500r hillclimber (conv)
89'cr 500 bent frame
04'crf230(wifeys)
02' cr125(sons)
02,pro jr 50 open exh. hill climber(sons)
02'sx65(sons)
03'xr50(sons)
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