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Posted: March 6th, 2008, 3:44 pm
by MICK
Well in the last year I've done some reading on Max Power. And it seems Eric Gorr worked for them in the early years and pretty much established their current SOP in regards to resurfacing and plating. He later left them for US Chrome because he felt the owner had a deeper passion for motor sports.
So they told you they didn't coat sleeves huh...that's what a man told me the first time I talked to them. When I called a second time to confirm their address and price a different guy told me they would be more than happy to do my sleeve. Where the communication breakdown was the first time I don't know? But I wonder if maybe they sent my jug oversees because they didn't have the tooling in house to perform the job? Put it this way. They coated a piston for me, sent it to Surf 'N Turf where it met my crank for balancing. And the bottom and top end made it back to my house before the jug did. So they did something with it...
All I can say is don't play stupid with them. Tell them what you want and if they dumb ass on the phone can't figure it out take your business somewhere else. A lot of good coating businesses out there. I'm sure US Chrome can handle any job.
Posted: March 7th, 2008, 6:33 am
by lewisclan
I havent sent anything out yet I am still waiting on the pistons, so I called them again and talked to a guy named Josh seemed to know what he was talking about to me .
Posted: March 10th, 2008, 11:47 pm
by zorak-2
Uzi wrote:Slow old Fart wrote:
I think Rosco-peeko here on the site is running a wiseco at less than that in a regular cast sleeve and getting along alright. So I guess my next question is would you be required to run only one type of piston? (either cast or forged)
.
No Rosco is running a pro-x piston in his motor.At least when he did his rebuild on the other site the pro-x is what it looks like he installed.
Posted: March 13th, 2008, 9:47 pm
by zorak-2
I just got an email from max power.This what I was told in an email.
CR 500’s have a factory steel sleeve. We can not plate over steel.
Will Bredeson
Sales & Marketing director
Max-RPM's
3001 Progress Rd.
Madison, WI 53716
608-224-2524
www.maxrpms.com
Posted: March 14th, 2008, 5:37 am
by sabreguy
zorak-2 wrote:Uzi wrote:Slow old Fart wrote:
I think Rosco-peeko here on the site is running a wiseco at less than that in a regular cast sleeve and getting along alright. So I guess my next question is would you be required to run only one type of piston? (either cast or forged)
.
No Rosco is running a pro-x piston in his motor.At least when he did his rebuild on the other site the pro-x is what it looks like he installed.
When GSS did Rosco cyl he installed a Wiseco but I think he was talking about a ProX on the next rebuild.
Posted: March 14th, 2008, 7:25 am
by MICK
zorak-2 wrote:
We can not plate over steel.
They CAN plate over steel if they wanted to. Apticote 2000 can be applied to any surface...aluminum, steel, titanium, magnesium, cast iron etc.
The difference is the pretreatment method. They have to prepare the sleeve for treatment by bathing it in acids and alkalines. But there's a problem when preparing a cylinder with two kinds of metal. Aluminum and steel for instance. A steel pretreatment can't come in contact with aluminum and vice versa. They can coat a steel liner before it's pressed into a cylinder or they can mask off the jug and expose just the bore. The later being rather tricky. If they don't mask it off perfectly, cracks and blistering in the coating can occur later on down the road. Max Power would rather sell you an aluminum sleeve and coat it and save themselves the pretreatment nightmare.
Eric Gorr's Forward Motion was co-lacated with todays Max Power. Eric himself wrote the book on how to repair and coat steel sleeves. He later left MP for USC because a bunch of idiots were hired with higher pay than he was.
A couple things are going on here. I had my jug coated a couple years ago. Once being told they couldn't do it either, apparently there was ONE man left from Eric's day who was still competent in his work. What they're saying now is basically that they are not knowledgeable enough nor do they have talent today they once had under Eric's supervision.
Fortunately Eric Gorr having jump ships to USC you can have your steel sleeve coated correctly by them instead. Apticote 2000 being the same thing Ni-Com is anyways. Where at one time Max Power claimed they offered the standard in coating application and preparation...I somehow feel they no longer hold that title.
Posted: March 17th, 2008, 8:42 pm
by aloha450x
what is the cost to do this?
Posted: March 18th, 2008, 3:21 pm
by Uzi
Its about $300 to do a cr500 cylinder and thats over the stock iron sleeve. I have the cylinder for my 250 at US chrome right now getting re-plated. I did some talking with them after all the questioning I did in this thread. I found out that Nicom is just their trade name for nikasil. They claim that the way they plate cylinders results in a higher quality finish than you get from manufacturer. As soon as I get enough saved up I'm sending one of my 500 cylinders too as its on its last bore.
Posted: March 18th, 2008, 5:06 pm
by aloha450x
that's just the cylinder huh? what about te head? I don't see any benfit from doing it. would it be worth doing to a stock bore if you wanted too? t should last a long time right. so you just have to change pistons and rings?
Posted: March 18th, 2008, 5:14 pm
by britincali
Why would you want or need the head plating????????
Posted: March 18th, 2008, 5:34 pm
by Uzi
aloha450x wrote:that's just the cylinder huh? what about te head? I don't see any benfit from doing it. would it be worth doing to a stock bore if you wanted too? t should last a long time right. so you just have to change pistons and rings?
Yeah it should last a very long time if you keep a tight piston in it. I think that the only reason my cylinder went out of spec is because it ran the original piston for way too long. It wasn't that cylinder was gouged it was just oval shaped from the piston rocking in the bore for way way too long.
My bike is a 2000 and the stock piston made it to 2007 before it broke the skirt. I didn't buy it until 2006 but the guy before me put plenty of hours on it as did I. I learned the hard way that you need to check cast pistons for cracks. It not the fault of the piston it just happens when you run them too long and clearances get too big.
And yeah there is no reason to nikasil a head they are not a part of the motor that sees friction wear like the walls of the cylinder and sides of the piston. I don't see any advantage to doing the head.
As far as the bore size it doesn't really matter I just waited until the last bore to get the most displacement without any other mods. You can plate at any bore size if you want to.
Posted: March 18th, 2008, 7:32 pm
by MICK
Uzi wrote:
And yeah there is no reason to nikasil a head they are not a part of the motor that sees friction wear like the walls of the cylinder and sides of the piston. I don't see any advantage to doing the head..
Correct. But not to confuse Apticote 2000 / Nikasil or Ni-Com with the plating Max Power does to the head. In this case it's NOT the same thing. The coating called Apticote 420 is applied to the head surface. It provides a highly reflective surface, reducing carbon buildup as well as increasing thermal conductivity. What's that mean to us? It prevents hot spots in the combustion chamber reducing the chance of pre det. And yes, strangely it does almost eliminate carbon buildup. I saw a combustion chamber so clean this spring it would have made even the grinch smile. But again, the increased resistance to pre det is the only real benefit here.
Posted: March 18th, 2008, 8:04 pm
by M.F.D.B.
You will loose some Hp if it increases conductivity. The better way to go is the heat REFLECTIVE coatings like the formula 1 and top fuelers use. The more heat that stays in the cylinder the more power you make and the cooler your engine will run...
Posted: March 18th, 2008, 8:43 pm
by MICK
MICK wrote:It provides a highly reflective surface
That's what they claim. The thermal conductivity is to help spread heat evenly across the entire head and the piston crown, which is also coated with 420. This is intended to improve fuel combustion and spread the force of combustion across the entire piston crown and not just the center.
But whatever...that's Max Power's pooch to screw. It's something you've gotta try and decide for yourself if it made a shitting bit of difference. It's not like I start my bike in the morning and say, "Wow listen to that Apticote motor purr!" But yes, I did have big shit eating grin this spring when I looked at my top end.
Posted: April 11th, 2008, 3:49 pm
by Uzi
Posted: April 14th, 2008, 5:26 am
by 4Z
Nice pics Uzi. They did a nice job on it eh?
I just got one back from Millennium Technologies and updated the exhaust some more. I love the look, feel of a fresh re-nik.
Posted: May 12th, 2008, 5:38 am
by 4Z
Slow old Fart wrote:lewisclan wrote:Thats a bitchen looking cyl
You would not like how fast it will wear your top end out compared to stock and it is for peak HP.
Well, I waited to reply to this. I had the same thoughts the first time Doug Ruth ported my 1200cc motors. But now on this 800cc motor I have about 2500 miles on this season (which is possible thanks to the record snowfall up here and we are still riding)
I have been watching the, what I call, "knifing" of the piston at the exh port. It was better on this motor than on past ones as we made some champher changes. Now with the head off for a dome swap and base gasket replacement I had a chance to investigate. Not wearing like a stocker, but I could put another 2500 miles on this motor with 13:1 and the spray just like I have done all season.........And for the power range. This being a exh valve motor, It didn't hurt the bottom hardly at all with stock 12:1 comp. By going up to 13.5 this motor wakes up on the bottom so much, I was able to throw flyweights at the clutching that would almost stall a stocker. I know some guys on here don't like valved motors, but I love them.
Posted: May 23rd, 2008, 9:36 am
by kkvslayer
I Have a 03 ArcticCat F7,it has nikasil coated walls,both my pistons melted on the exhaust side last month when I was on my way back home from a hockey tournament,both walls are toast with chips/cracks in the coatings on both walls near the exhaust ports,one was a brand new wall not sure how many miles on the other,installed brand new molycoated pistons when I got the new cylinder wall,I think I put about 200 miles on it before it burned up,sadly I think it was my own fault,I got a slow leak somewhere in the coolant line and my bottle was pretty low when I was ready to go home so I filled it up put the lid on and took off with out letting it circulate the air out of the line,it makes since because on the Cat laydown twins the walls are angled back so the upper exhaust side of the walls & forward side of the head would be where the air would gather I think,Thats the only thing I could think that happened.anyways back to the nikasil coating,If your on your last bore I could see it being worth it,just don't make fukin stupid mistakes like me or it is expensive
Posted: May 23rd, 2008, 12:35 pm
by M.F.D.B.
You cant Nikisil steel, so if you are on your last bore...
Posted: May 23rd, 2008, 3:28 pm
by kkvslayer
M.F.D.B. wrote:You cant Nikisil steel, so if you are on your last bore...
I'm confused
,If you can't nikasil steel wtf is the point of this thread
Not directed at you M.F.D.B but one post says you can,the next says you can't,Does anyone really know?Am I missing something here?
Posted: May 23rd, 2008, 3:36 pm
by 100hp honda
not sure if theres enough room without getting into the water jackets but anybody thought of trying a triple port exhaust on a cr5 cylinder ? from what i read, if done right, it works good on OEM banshee cylinders
Posted: May 23rd, 2008, 5:25 pm
by M.F.D.B.
Theres other platings for steel but Nikisil isnt one of them. Nikasil is for Aluminum.
Posted: May 27th, 2008, 3:36 pm
by Uzi
M.F.D.B. wrote:Theres other platings for steel but Nikisil isnt one of them. Nikasil is for Aluminum.
US chrome will put nicom (which is their trade name for high grade nikasil) on your cast iron cylinder sleeve. It says so on the website and I spoke with them on the phone to make sure I read it right. The said a cr500 cylinder would be about $300. Their website shows 270 but I think they quoted me a pirce with the shipping. The thing is if you on the last bore and you've already worn it out of spec then your screwed. At least that what I can tell from reading their site because they can't put it on thick enough to bring the bore back into spec.
http://www.usnicom.com/price.asp
Take a look there or give them a call they were very helpful when I talked to them. They did a really good job on my cr250 (the one pictured above) but there is usually a 2-3 week turn around just FYI if your in a hurry.
Posted: July 17th, 2008, 9:52 am
by aloha450x
sorry to bring this up but im just doing research. i called several places yesterday that nikisil cylinders. i called milinium and they said they dont do cast iron sleves. few others said they will do it. i called kustom kraft. he told me that they will do it. if i wanted to do the piston they first send the piston off and have the skirt teflon coated and the dome of the piston ceramic coated. when the piston gets back they then plate the cylinder and hone it to the correct gap. he said they plate the sleeve in the cylinder to prevent slight warping or something like that. in theroy i believe the top end should last a very long time as long as you keep the ring gap in specs. i think as long as you change the rings out on a regular basis you should be good to go. the only reason im researching this is that my bike will be abused daily and dont really want to bore the thing every 6 months. that will add up sending the cylinder off to someone who has a torque plate. so price wise 2 bore jobs will pay for the plating and piston coating. and i overthink shit again or am i making sense? i have a bone stock cylinder and would like to keep it that way. ui would use a oem piston and i could have a stock of rings on hand. thoughts?
Posted: July 19th, 2008, 11:09 am
by MICK
I have read a number of good articles published by Eric Gorr about plating cylinders.
You can plate anything. It's not that Nikisil can't be applied to our sleeves, it's just a more difficult job to do so. Most shops won't accept the work because of the liability. Gorr now works for US Chrome and they will accept your steel liner tomorrow for plating. From what I've read thus far Eric is basically the brain behind coating iron sleeves. He's the one a person needs to get in contact with.
