Service Hondas "Improved Ignition" vs OEM

Ported&Polished · Post by **Ported&Polished** » July 4th, 2008, 11:47 pm

Alot of people here bag on the 450's, but they rip. Yes they need more maintenance and cost more to rebuild, but they have gobs of usable power and the average rider is a better rider on one. As for why racers ride the 4strokes it's because they are easy to ride and they can turn faster laps on them than on the 250 2strokes they replaced. The modern 4 stroke race bike takes advantage of an old obscure rule that says a 4 stroke can be up to 450cc's in the 250 class. That rule was made up way back when 4 strokes were heavy and ill handling bikes. It was also a time when racers were average joe types, not rich pampered spoiled punks that can't be seen on a outdated machine. It allowed some slob to race a old plug and be competitive against the 2 strokes of the early days of motocross. As far as cr500, it's an open class racer, the 450 isn't. The open class was eliminated in 93, and the 500's made after that where made for the public to ride, not for the pros to race. That's why they never changed after 93, the bike stayed virtually the same because there was no need to pour money into their development. As far as Honda was concerned it was a weekend warrior bike until it's demise in 01. The SH ignition was developed for the cr500AF to make it more competitive on motocross tracks by eliminating some of the "hit", so that it wouldn't spin the rear tire as much. For amatures that race, the AF would theoretically be more rideable in competition against the 4 strokes with less wheel spin. For the weekend cr500 rider, especially the big boys that need more power and ride open desert, less hit is worth nothing because it takes away from the very aspect of why they ride a cr500 in the first place.

Ported&Polished · Post by **Ported&Polished** » July 5th, 2008, 12:31 am

M.F.D.B. wrote: I think too many guys buy 500's just to tell people they ride one...

That could be true, although I don't think it's true with the guys I know personally that own them. Some folks here are more capable of using a cr500 for their application than others, but they probly bought them for the power. I know alot of people say "Only a pro is capable of using the cr500 or 450's power to it's full extent" Rubbish, I can say for certain that in my most common application (dunes), I use every ounce of power my cr500 has. And porting and doing other mods to increase the power is very neccessary in order to make the fun meter spin faster. I've owned and ridden smaller displacement bikes, they just don't cut it for me. When it comes to riding a dirt bike, if I rode a 250 or simular, I would be hating it.

M.F.D.B. · Post by **M.F.D.B.** » July 5th, 2008, 12:38 am

The dunes is the spot for power. If you asked me many years ago when I first started riding my 500 if it needed more power I would say HELL NO. But now that I have some experience I can definately say that even on Britts Nitrous bike I felt I needed more power. But thats DUNES and I would be willing to bet everything of value I own that I would run circles (on my 450) around most guys on the tight stuff (on a 500) where suspension/handling/smooth power delivery makes a HUGE difference.

I said it before and ill say it again, power means NOTHING without control. You guys can bag on thumpers all you want, but until someone puts their money where there mouth is, I will continue to ride that super slow 450 in the technical stuff all day and save my 500 for the dunes...

87CR500Rider · Post by **87CR500Rider** » July 5th, 2008, 6:20 am

Anyone who thinks a 450 revving over 10,000RPMs is tractable and has controllable power is fooling themselves. That 450 ain't going nowhere till it reaches high RPMs, then it spins as much as anything else. If you just dump the clutch on a 500, no you're not going anywhere, you're just digging ruts. Same thing on a 450. They're both heavy feeling so I'll ride the one I can twist the throttle and motor by the other on. The beauty of a 450 is you can basically ride around in 2 gears on a motocross track cause of the long linear "powerband". Guess what, my 500 is the same way and faster in the straights, usually cause I launch out of the turns faster. Riding with 450s is a pain actually cause when I catch one, I'm damn near running into him coming out of corners. Ever notice how slow the majority of the Pros look in the corners on a 450? That's the 450 riding them. If you took a midpack Pro and put him on an aluminum framed 500, he'd shave roughly 4-6 seconds off his time, easily. We're back at throttle control and proper clutch tecnique again which Pros have. You notice this all is about Motocross. As for tight stuff, I'd say the AMA Mid-South Hare Scrambles I'd ride in Mississippi is about as tight as youre gonna get and I'd ride my CR500. I fail to see what the problem is. The only thing that sucked about it was the heavy duty clutch springs I was running back then. I'd do it again today with a hydraulic clutch on the 500.

britincali · Post by **britincali** » July 5th, 2008, 7:53 am

M.F.D.B. wrote: Britts Nitrous bike I felt I needed more power.

Thats because she was sick with that surging BS, I think its better now

MICK · Post by **MICK** » July 5th, 2008, 8:12 am

Thank goodness we can put the 500 motor in the latest chassis

I feel absolutely ZERO disadvantage to riding an AF on a track or off road against a thumper. I personally think thumpers are worse off on trails than a motocross track.

M.F.D.B. wrote:...but until someone puts their money where there mouth is

I'm curtainly not the fastest most talented guy around. But I've hurt plenty of feelings. The riders who beat me deserve to beat me. They would pass me on anything...probably even a minibike. I know fourstrokes are quick and easy to ride. But for the life of me I don't like anything about them. I don't think they turn for shit, start, stop, I hate the noise...I just don't get along with anything a fourstroke does. And I have yet to keep up with a thumper rider once we trade bikes. Needless to say I'm ready to trade back much sooner then they are. Funny when a guy who's never ridden a 500 before says after trading bikes, "they say a 450 will run with a 500 two stroke. But I don't think they can even keep up." If I want to continue placing well at races, I'll stay on the 500. A rider's ability means EVERYTHING, it easily trumps the smooth power argument.

teemtrubble · Post by **teemtrubble** » July 5th, 2008, 11:38 am

redridermv wrote:I guess it is about time for me to give my 2 cents being a SH 2006 AFX owner.

I have yet to be stranded because of my current ignition. Back in the day when I raced D37 events with the dead start races I would have been a very pissed off man. RedRocket stated once that his bike “starts when it feels like it” is the perfect statement with my bike.

I have spoke (emailed) to AJ about the fact that I don’t trust the bike because I like to trail ride way back in the boonies and the possibility of my bike not starting would be catastrophic as a tow would be impossible.

AJ was a stand up guy and offered me the new ignition as soon as it was available and a stock loaner until then. I denied the stock loaner because my bike starts in 2-10 kicks and has yet to leave me stranded. I will report on the new ignition when it is ready.

Peace out,
Scott

Are you guy's missing this Scott say's 2006AFX start's when it wants to!

M.F.D.B. · Post by **M.F.D.B.** » July 5th, 2008, 1:45 pm

87CR500Rider wrote: The beauty of a 450 is you can basically ride around in 2 gears on a motocross track cause of the long linear "powerband". Guess what, my 500 is the same way and faster in the straights, usually cause I launch out of the turns faster.

Im not even going to argue with the two of you when you start saying things like the statements above or things like...

"Anyone who thinks a 450 revving over 10,000RPMs is tractable and has controllable power is fooling themselves. That 450 ain't going nowhere till it reaches high RPMs, then it spins as much as anything else."

Anyone who can say a 450 has no better traction then a 500 but the 500 is so much faster doesnt have a CLUE what they are talking about.

Either one of you bad mofos got video of your crazy skills??

M.F.D.B. · Post by **M.F.D.B.** » July 5th, 2008, 1:46 pm

teemtrubble wrote: Are you guy's missing this Scott say's 2006AFX start's when it wants to!

Sowwy...u r right...

nmdesertrider · Post by **nmdesertrider** » July 5th, 2008, 2:27 pm

MFDB-there was an article in one of the motocross mags a few years ago that had a bunch of pros on a cr500AF and a CRF450.

All of them were faster on the AF, one of them was a 4 seconds faster per lap!

If I can find it I will try to post it here.

MICK · Post by **MICK** » July 5th, 2008, 2:29 pm

MFDB I know they're not slow. I know you can go stupid fast on them. They just don't work well with me. You might be able to ride one real well, most folks can. I got no ill skills to speak of what so ever. But the skills I got are just enough to ride the wheels off the bike I got. I just really suck on a fourstroke, and as often as I ride them you would think I'd get better. I just really think fourstrokes are better left for lawnmowers than closed course race bikes. A guy should always ride what he feels comfortable on. Have fun on your 450. I'll stay on my 500.

Transworld Motocross produced quicker lap times on the 500 as well as two other magazines. Remember MXA's rider won his class against all 450s on a '01 steely. The man makes the machine every time. I gives a damn what anybody is riding, if you beat me...you're just a better damn rider. Period. And vice versa.

redrocket190 · Post by **redrocket190** » July 5th, 2008, 2:59 pm

nmdesertrider wrote:MFDB-there was an article in one of the motocross mags a few years ago that had a bunch of pros on a cr500AF and a CRF450. All of them were faster on the AF, one of them was a 4 seconds faster per lap! If I can find it I will try to post it here.

The test was at Cahuilla Creek and to summarize, the Pro riders were 7s a lap faster on the CR500AF, it was a wash for the Intermediates, and the Novice riders were 7s a lap slower. The CR500R is faster, but harder to ride. The flat torque curve of the average 450 4-stroke makes it easier to ride which makes riders with less skill comparatively faster. I have ridden both back-to-back and like the CR500R more, even though it is probably making me slower.

nmdesertrider · Post by **nmdesertrider** » July 5th, 2008, 3:18 pm

I apologize for the rotten paraphrasing, but I suffer from chronic CRS.

I think a novice can learn to ride a 500, I think that it is easier for a PRO to get on an unfamiliar bike and go fast.

I just short shift to maintain traction and keep it from wearing me out, I am already faster now than I was on my 250.

britincali · Post by **britincali** » July 5th, 2008, 3:29 pm

I would probably be a lot faster on a 450 or even a 250 2t but I like the 500's power

Post by **AlisoBob** » July 5th, 2008, 3:36 pm

I saw a Novice race at Willow Springs.... Vettes vs. Vipers vs. Dodge Neons...

The Neons killed everything, and the "fast" cars went off track at every turn.

Sometimes "More" is "Less"......

teemtrubble · Post by **teemtrubble** » July 5th, 2008, 3:38 pm

redrocket190 wrote:
nmdesertrider wrote:MFDB-there was an article in one of the motocross mags a few years ago that had a bunch of pros on a cr500AF and a CRF450. All of them were faster on the AF, one of them was a 4 seconds faster per lap! If I can find it I will try to post it here.
The test was at Cahuilla Creek and to summarize, the Pro riders were 7s a lap faster on the CR500AF, it was a wash for the Intermediates, and the Novice riders were 7s a lap slower. The CR500R is faster, but harder to ride. The flat torque curve of the average 450 4-stroke makes it easier to ride which makes riders with less skill comparatively faster. I have ridden both back-to-back and like the CR500R more, even though it is probably making me slower.

WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT! YOU WERE 18 MONTHS SLOWER EVERY LAP BECAUSE IT WOULDN'T START!!!!!!!!!!!!

redrocket190 · Post by **redrocket190** » July 5th, 2008, 6:17 pm

At that point I had already switched to a 1999 stock ignition courtesy of Mr. Lewis....

87CR500Rider · Post by **87CR500Rider** » July 5th, 2008, 9:46 pm

M.F.D.B. wrote:
87CR500Rider wrote: The beauty of a 450 is you can basically ride around in 2 gears on a motocross track cause of the long linear "powerband". Guess what, my 500 is the same way and faster in the straights, usually cause I launch out of the turns faster.
Im not even going to argue with the two of you when you start saying things like the statements above or things like...

"Anyone who thinks a 450 revving over 10,000RPMs is tractable and has controllable power is fooling themselves. That 450 ain't going nowhere till it reaches high RPMs, then it spins as much as anything else."

Anyone who can say a 450 has no better traction then a 500 but the 500 is so much faster doesnt have a CLUE what they are talking about.

Either one of you bad mofos got video of your crazy skills??

Video, no, photos, yeah. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Sucks finding out I don't have a clue after riding for 36 years. Maybe you can explain why a 21 year old non-tractable CR500 will outlaunch and outpull a 450. I'm clueless.

dannygraves · Post by **dannygraves** » July 5th, 2008, 9:57 pm

heres a vid of MFDB on his mostly stock 450 destroying my 500. another 450 behind me.
back at dumont where the hill was taller I was taking him. You can tell I'm putting out way more power by the roost it throws everytime I shift, but he definitly had more tractable power. plus he 50 lbs lighter than me and a more skilled rider.
http://pho.sunrisehvac.com/Amargosa%20F ... V02262.MPG

heres a good vid where he headed the other direction... ofcoarse, he heads the other direction when I did an alright run

http://pho.sunrisehvac.com/Amargosa%20F ... V02251.MPG

dannygraves · Post by **dannygraves** » July 5th, 2008, 9:58 pm

nice pics BTW, I like seeing someone haulin' ass old school

M.F.D.B. · Post by **M.F.D.B.** » July 6th, 2008, 12:26 am

dannygraves wrote:heres a vid of MFDB on his mostly stock 450 destroying my 500. another 450 behind me.
back at dumont where the hill was taller I was taking him. You can tell I'm putting out way more power by the roost it throws everytime I shift, but he definitly had more tractable power. plus he 50 lbs lighter than me and a more skilled rider.
http://pho.sunrisehvac.com/Amargosa%20F ... V02262.MPG

heres a good vid where he headed the other direction... ofcoarse, he heads the other direction when I did an alright run
http://pho.sunrisehvac.com/Amargosa%20F ... V02251.MPG

That video is a great example of what im talking about. Your bike is WAAYYY faster then my fo fitty, but you are roosting a friggin FIRE HOSE load of sand. Enough to completely COVER another bike behind you. But look at my bike, its barely roosting at all. The reason I eat you alive at Amargosa, but you drive around me at Dumont is because the sand at Amargosa is sugar soft and very loose, COMPOUNDING your already lack of traction inherent in the 500.

Its just like an alky funny car, hooked up it will run a 5 sec 1/4 mile, boil and shake the tires and it may run a 10 sec. 1/4. He lines up next to my CBR1000RR and he better hook up. Even though hes twice as fast with FOURTY times the power (6000hp) loose traction for a few seconds....PAY ME BITCH cuz you just lost the race...

87CR500Rider · Post by **87CR500Rider** » July 6th, 2008, 5:40 am

I understand what you're saying. I also know what Throttle Control is. You don't have it, you dig ruts. You have it, you go forward at fast rates of speed. The track I ride the most is a deep, sandy, powdery mixture. 450's can't pull the 500. By what you just said, my untractable 500 should lose, but it doesn't. Not on that deep horsepower robbing track. You start pumping a 4 stroke up and that tractable power goes away. An XR600 is tractable, a fire breathing 450, not so tractable. That's my point. I find it funny though that Mike Larocco said the SH needed more "hit". I guess he's clueless too. At least I'm in good company.

87CR500Rider · Post by **87CR500Rider** » July 6th, 2008, 5:41 am

dannygraves wrote:nice pics BTW, I like seeing someone haulin' ass old school

Come on Danny, you know I'm clueless. Nothing but wheel spin happening. That was in the over 40 expert recently. Old school you said, here you go. I'm #7. 1982, I'm 15 in the expert class.

http://video.yahoo.com/search/?p=1982+motocross

87CR500Rider · Post by **87CR500Rider** » July 6th, 2008, 5:45 am

dannygraves wrote:heres a vid of MFDB on his mostly stock 450 destroying my 500. another 450 behind me.
back at dumont where the hill was taller I was taking him. You can tell I'm putting out way more power by the roost it throws everytime I shift, but he definitly had more tractable power. plus he 50 lbs lighter than me and a more skilled rider.
http://pho.sunrisehvac.com/Amargosa%20F ... V02262.MPG

heres a good vid where he headed the other direction... ofcoarse, he heads the other direction when I did an alright run
http://pho.sunrisehvac.com/Amargosa%20F ... V02251.MPG

Looks like fun. Closest I've ever come to that was a sandbar back home in MS.

100hp honda · Post by **100hp honda** » July 6th, 2008, 7:12 am

dannygraves wrote:heres a vid of MFDB on his mostly stock 450 destroying my 500. another 450 behind me.
back at dumont where the hill was taller I was taking him. You can tell I'm putting out way more power by the roost it throws everytime I shift, but he definitly had more tractable power. plus he 50 lbs lighter than me and a more skilled rider.
http://pho.sunrisehvac.com/Amargosa%20F ... V02262.MPG

heres a good vid where he headed the other direction... ofcoarse, he heads the other direction when I did an alright run
http://pho.sunrisehvac.com/Amargosa%20F ... V02251.MPG

you need a new crew cheif danny

BannedCR500Riders.com

Service Hondas "Improved Ignition" vs OEM