04 450 First time build

["SOLID Bro!!"]

It's like he welded the mount on first. than welded the tube just by looking at it. Just my opinion.

Also if you look at the corners of the tube you see that little pit or indentation? That in my opinion that is a hole.

That is from rapid cool down from not slowly cutting the power from your torch. When I end a weld I always slowly come down on the power to prevent the aluminum from shrinking and causing a pit.

It looks cold. Like your welder didn't preheat the weld location.


I know it is just sitting there. But where the tubes come together, Did you or your welder have a gap ? There has to be a gap to connect all three pieces together.

This is what I do for prep



This is one I'm doing now

If you notice I beveled the tube so when i weld it I get the full penetration on the tube.


Before
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After[/img]

The welds come out smooth if there is enough heat in the material.

Hopefully this helps.

[AlisoBob]

Jig looks badass....

[KE 336]

I have a couple of thoughts. Don't know if they make a shit to your problem or not but this place is all about opinions and learning lotz of shit along the way. The others have already covered one being the welding.
Second is after reviewing your build you said you used a table saw to cut the extension pieces. Did that include cutting the insert ends? Did they fit in the frame tube sloppy? When I did mine, I noticed every four wall sizes was different from .095 to .110 I cut each side (of insert) to correspond to mating wall. The other thing that I wondered about was you saying you had to spread the craddle 1/2-3/4". Are you talking about when you where putting the Y in place or did you have tension holding tubes apart while welding?

[kdizzle]

Nice Puppy

[Duzy]

Yeah I shaved the ends of the inserts and just got them close then used a hand file for the corners. They were all different but I spent the time to fit each end and marked them for side and orientation. Spread frame a bit to get the Y and slugs in and all fit snug. Had to spread rails side to side for a straight look with a straight edge. Got her tore down and gonna hog out the welds and take it to my local welding shop. You know the guys with the paper work that says they know what they're doing. See what happens...

[dubious01]

I am no pro but I have heard rumblings that many of these failures are from not preheating the billet or solid bar sections, and from improper weld technique.
I bought one that exhibits the same issues as yours has, in fact the only difference is mine didn't have a headstay to the shock tower like yours, just the side tubes to the mainspars. It vibrated like a fag at a weiner roast, and cracked in the cradle at the inserts/ bottom of the Y.

Its interesting that Bob stated the motor mounts should not intersect with the butt weld. I figured it would strengthen the butt joint, acting as a side gusset.

Nice bike, great effort, sorry for the problems, but thanks for sharing, as that might save others and me some problems of my own.

Very cool dog BTW.

[AlisoBob]

Its interesting that Bob stated the motor mounts should not intersect with the butt weld. I figured it would strengthen the butt joint, acting as a side gusset.

I'm prolly' wrong, but it looks like he welded in the mounts BEFORE he welded the butts of the tubing together. If so, the butt weld only goes 3/4 the way around..... I hope this isnt the case.

[bearorso]

Very uninspiring welds.

The crack looks to be generating from the finishing crater, right through the middle of the weld. Locating a finish point away from a high stress area, and / or doing a crater fill is one of the first things you learn with aluminium welding. Hence the "uninspiring weld" comment. The rest of the welding would be a worry to me. It would also be wise to enquire what rod was used. Though you'd have to really make an effort and get it wrong and not use 5356-SG Al Mg 5. It's the primary weld rod, or best alternate for the majority of weldable aluminium - a fabrication shop without it would be a worry.

Unless you had only access to a gutless little weld unit, there's no part of an AF build that I'd feel the need for any pre-heat preparation. And I've just got a Syncrowave 250 pulse unit, not a Dyna like that Bastard Roosty (yup, I'm as jealous as hell on that point ).

[AlisoBob]

You gotta' pre-heat it. That frame is just one big heat sink, and it will draw the heat right out of the weld.

You can look at most A/F builds, and locate the first weld, and the last weld quite easily...

Its not that the welder got better towards the end, or that he found some better filler rod towards the end..... its simply that the frame got hotter... towards the end.

[bearorso]

I've welded TIG for 36 of my 50 years. None of the frame sections of an AF build are thick enough to require pre-heating, unless, as I wrote , your stuck with a piddly little weld unit, such as a sub 150/180 amp power source. Or even worse, trying to get it done with a DC unit . Or perhaps if you're struggling along with a panel set, 'non throttle' unit. But a professional welder wouldn't have much trouble with that last point.

Some people think that spreading heat further than TIGs HAZ is a good idea on the relatively thin, by aluminium fabrication stds, of an AF frame ( fuck knows why), but they are loosing a key benefit of TIG, in limiting the HAZ .

[AlisoBob]

My welder has this huge Linde that puts out 1.21 jig-uh-watts......

He uses helium, and does some of the best welding i've seen....

What do you do thats so diffrent that you dont need to pre-heat?

I imagine that your tungsten is 99% of being molten.

[pstoffers]

My welder don't pre-heat

[Duzy]

I know it's off topic but anybody interested in the 01 500 roller? The steely pictured in the start of this post. After riding the alloy I'm not going back so prob gonna just sell it. Whats it worth anyway if nobody wants it gonna ebay it and don't know what it's worth....

[bearorso]

Bob, your welder can do what he likes to do. Each to his own.

I prefer not to extend the HAZ zone.

There are no weld points with an AF conversion that have such heavy sections / differences in sections that I consider require preheating of the weldment pieces.

Perhaps your welder prefers to preheat, so to use minimal amps, or has a non throttle control unit. Preheating would make it much easier to do a consistent weld, with consistent speed if that was the type of set up he was using.

I use various sized Tungstens , from 1.6 through to 3.2 on AFs - I use the appropriate size for each joint. And don't exceed the maximum amps for each size Tungsten. Perhaps the maximum amps I ever use in an AF weld is about 220 - and that about 5% of the time during a weld.

I've been doing Tig for 36 years - I've CASA Aircraft Frame certification ( for my fellow OZ blokes, I did quite a lot of work on airframe mods for Dick Smiths various flight adventures, be it fixed wing or helo), am a Mech. Eng. and know what I'm doing. An AF construction is far from involved or difficult. The average one has about 40 inches of weld at the maximum - my alloy tanks have a few hundred, and are much more involved than throwing an AF together.

["SOLID Bro!!"]

I know it's off topic but anybody interested in the 01 500 roller? The steely pictured in the start of this post. After riding the alloy I'm not going back so prob gonna just sell it. Whats it worth anyway if nobody wants it gonna ebay it and don't know what it's worth....

HA! HA! This guys hijacking his own thread.

Pretty so he's gonna start talking to himself.

[AlisoBob]

My welder don't pre-heat

You told me he did, with something called "Mr. Heater"... something like a kerosene space heater....

http://www.mrheater.com/

[pstoffers]

My welder don't pre-heat

You told me he did, with something called "Mr. Heater"... something like a kerosene space heater....

http://www.mrheater.com/

I do that when I jack the frame. No pre-heat when welding...

[AlisoBob]

Got it.... Thanks Paulie.

[riverman]

When I first looked at this thread I wonder if the welds would hold. There are alot problems any time you leave a pit or low place (lack of Filler mat) it is a stress riser and typically is where the weld is the weakest and will start the failure. They look like the welder puddled the filler and just ran it over the tube, instead of starting the puddle first on the parent material then adding filler material. As for preheat it is preference on material like this, yes it is only .125 thick, but you have a .500 bar inside that acts like a heat sink. With no preheat the welder has to have the experience to apply heat with the tig torch until it is hot enough to start a good quality weld. I would preheat and weld one side at each joint to get the entire piece up to a decent even temp before completeing any one weld.
As for fixing this I would grind all of the welds out. Bevel the best you can and have them rewelded.
It's whats lifes about learning from your mistakes at least no one got hurt.

[Duzy]

Just got done digging out the welds and none of them had full penetration. When I got deep enough saw where pieces plugged together. Should appear to be all one piece correct. I did leave a gap the first time to fill but looks like slugs didn't get hot enough. Beveled all joints and taking it to welder. o well ur right at least I didn't get hurt. Got a spare frame and gonna get some rails from solid. Build another safer stronger cooler one. All that work can't just throw it out for scrap. In the mean time at least I will have this one to ride.

[AlisoBob]

What are you digging them out with? If you use cut-off wheels the material gets in the pores of the aluminum and reslts in a crappy weld.

Use carbide burrs, files, sawzall's... anything mechanical..... but no cut-off wheels.

["SOLID Bro!!"]

What are you digging them out with? If you use cut-off wheels the material gets in the pores of the aluminum and reslts in a crappy weld.

Use carbide burrs, files, sawzall's... anything mechanical..... but no cut-off wheels.

X2

[Duzy]

My father was a machinist for 35 years and he got me this industrial dremel. He calls it a Do-More. Cool lil shit. It's got a ton of heads for it. Take pics of it tonight.

[pstoffers]

My father was a machinist for 35 years and he got me this industrial dremel. He calls it a Do-More. Cool lil shit. It's got a ton of heads for it. Take pics of it tonight.

I got a DO-MORE after you use it you can DO-MORE!!!!!!

[Duzy]

Got the frame welded up by local shop. The welds are def. strong looking but not pretty. At least he give me enough material to blend. I left some of the welds and did not take down to flush. I guess still a little gun shy still. Anyway a few long rides in and no problems yet. Here is the Do-More I used to dig out the old welds.




Here is one of the welds. I know its still ugly guys so don't rag me to bad. I am more worried about strength than looks.





Gonna ride it till the snow flies and hope for no more failures!