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Posted: December 4th, 2008, 1:33 pm
by south central hoon
britincali wrote:Went quiet in here all of a sudden.......
You have to hand it to AJ for posting anything here at all given the history. I admire the dude's passion for these bikes, and what he has been able to do for the sport.
thanks for posting AJ.
Posted: December 4th, 2008, 1:45 pm
by britincali
south central hoon wrote:britincali wrote:Went quiet in here all of a sudden.......
You have to hand it to AJ for posting anything here at all given the history. I admire the dude's passion for these bikes, and what he has been able to do for the sport.
thanks for posting AJ.
Absolutly
Posted: December 4th, 2008, 1:47 pm
by Exnav
south central hoon wrote:You have to hand it to AJ for posting anything here at all given the history. I admire the dude's passion for these bikes, and what he has been able to do for the sport.
thanks for posting AJ.
I'll second that as well and I believe that many members feel the same. I would like AJ to for once answer Bob's direct questions without deflection or redirection. Lots of people here want to know, but few ask. Not answering just gives more life to the whole matter, when it could be simply ended or at the very least cleared up if he would add a little visibility to this.
Posted: December 4th, 2008, 1:50 pm
by teemtrubble
Posted: December 4th, 2008, 1:53 pm
by AlisoBob
Exnav wrote:[ Not answering just gives more life to the whole matter, when it could be simply ended or at the very least cleared up if he would add a little visibility to this.
Yup.....
Posted: December 4th, 2008, 2:05 pm
by juddy
Exnav wrote:south central hoon wrote:You have to hand it to AJ for posting anything here at all given the history. I admire the dude's passion for these bikes, and what he has been able to do for the sport.
thanks for posting AJ.
X 3
Posted: December 4th, 2008, 3:36 pm
by MICK
I wanted a brand new bike with a brand new zero hour motor. I drove to Hammond, IN. and purchased my bike for $8,300 OTD on 21DEC02 from Rob Anderson. The attractiveness of a Service Honda is the "like" OEM production. It looks and feels like something Honda themselves produced and only offers through S/H. I don't agree that S/H asks premium $$ for their bikes. Although their bikes can come modded beyond belief, a base model like mine isn't much more than a current fourstroke. I mean really it isn't...taken into account the work and aftermarket parts needed the price for a Service Honda isn't just fair, I think it's a damn good buy.
Mikes bikes look spectacular. Better than my S/H without question. But looks aren't the only thing that motivate my purchase decision. Will Mike drive to my house to fix a transmission hiccup like S/H did? Will Mike answer his phone every day of the week to answer my questions and trouble shoot things? Can Mike overnight hard parts to me so I don't miss a ride? Maybe he can maybe he can't? But owning a Service Honda does come with the satisfaction that your bike is covered indefinately if something goes wrong.
I took these pictures tonight so I apologize for the poor lighting. But this is my bike after seven years of riding and racing. Given the number of CR500AF's S/H produces, the work done to my bike I feel is more than satisfactory. It curtainly has nothing fundamentally flawed in design as it's taken my abuse in full stride. As is the case with Mikes builds, I would expect a higher quality of finish than this. But what's a prettier looking frame worth to me?? Not a whole lot...
Not much different than Stoffers. Save for maybe a better picture. But given the initial cost, years of wonderfull riding experiences, reliability and follow up support I coulnd't be happier. TTM's bikes look nice...but my Service Honda isn't going anywhere.
The pictures thrown around of the AFX above are obviously one of S/H's worst builds. Mistakes happen. My only question would be could I trade my bike for another if it looked like that? Or could I get a rebate due to the less than standard S/H quality? One or the other I believe is owed to the consumer of that bike.
Posted: December 4th, 2008, 4:01 pm
by AlisoBob
MICK wrote:
The pictures thrown around of the AFX above are obviously one of S/H's worst builds. Mistakes happen. My only question would be could I trade my bike for another if it looked like that? Or could I get a rebate due to the less than standard S/H quality? One or the other I believe is owed to the consumer of that bike.
Thats the big question I keep asking, without a response.... Who is really building the bikes now?
I wouldnt call that Gen 4 photo a "Mistake" bike, it just dosent match the reputation that the bikes have for fit and finish. The other Gen 4 local to me looks pretty close to the same level of detail. Its all I have ever commented on, to earn the name "S/H Basher"
Both bike function well, and have never broken. One has an electrial issue, the other an ignition issue.... but those are issues for another day.
I too have also seen some great looking S/H bikes. Armpump has two of them, a Gen 2 , and a Gen 3 I beleive. I saw a Gen 3 in the parking lot of Champion in Costa Mesa Ca. that looked very nice. These all looked really good, as do most of the older ones.
The newer ones are a different story.... The Gen 3 of Stoffers as an example. Is S/H farming out the welding? Is it done in house now, by some one other than AJ. Is AJ welding them now, and didnt before?
To my eyes, something has changed, and no one has stepped up to explain, after many repeated requests.
Maybe S/H is now turning out so many bikes that Q/C has slipped?
WTF?
Posted: December 4th, 2008, 4:54 pm
by YZF500
Aside from Micks bike, all the pics of these SH bikes seem to be of the same bikes over and over again
Posted: December 4th, 2008, 6:28 pm
by Uzi
MICK wrote:Although their bikes can come modded beyond belief, a base model like mine isn't much more than a current fourstroke. I mean really it isn't...taken into account the work and aftermarket parts needed the price for a Service Honda isn't just fair, I think it's a damn good buy.
I say that every time I look at new 4 strokes.
MICK wrote:
But what's a prettier looking frame worth to me?? Not a whole lot...
I'm glad to see some else say that. I mean it is after all a dirt bike and I'm a function over looks type person but thats just personal preference
That said I wouldn't pay top dollar for a SH looking like the one above.
But I wouldn't be very happy to spend money at TTM and end up waiting ten months either.
What I would like to see is a straight up comparison of SH and TTM
-Price
-Turn around
-Mod options
-Availability of frame conversions vs. a complete bike
-Options for Zero hour motors and frames vs. using your own motor and a used frame.
-Re-sale value and after the sale support.
I know that TTM welds are perfect and the bikes fit and finish are amazing. I've seen a few bikes from SH here in photos that seem to lack a little on fit and finish. I also seen really nice SH like bob was saying. I've seen AJ go above and beyond to make customers happy and I've seen TTM mike do the same helping hoons get parts and such. Both seem to be great guys who love bikes I wouldn't hesitate to purchase from either one. But I would still like to see a straight up the products with the stuff I listed above.
I've never seen a price on a TTM conversion and I'm sure it varies an the Gen of the frame among other things. And I don't know what AJ charges for a frame conversion. Any chance of getting the both of you to chime in on that. May that should be another thread.
Posted: December 4th, 2008, 8:03 pm
by teamdns
Uzi wrote:MICK wrote:Although their bikes can come modded beyond belief, a base model like mine isn't much more than a current fourstroke. I mean really it isn't...taken into account the work and aftermarket parts needed the price for a Service Honda isn't just fair, I think it's a damn good buy.
I say that every time I look at new 4 strokes.
MICK wrote:
But what's a prettier looking frame worth to me?? Not a whole lot...
I'm glad to see some else say that. I mean it is after all a dirt bike and I'm a function over looks type person but thats just personal preference
That said I wouldn't pay top dollar for a SH looking like the one above.
But I wouldn't be very happy to spend money at TTM and end up waiting ten months either.
What I would like to see is a straight up comparison of SH and TTM
-Price
-Turn around
-Mod options
-Availability of frame conversions vs. a complete bike
-Options for Zero hour motors and frames vs. using your own motor and a used frame.
-Re-sale value and after the sale support.
I know that TTM welds are perfect and the bikes fit and finish are amazing. I've seen a few bikes from SH here in photos that seem to lack a little on fit and finish. I also seen really nice SH like bob was saying. I've seen AJ go above and beyond to make customers happy and I've seen TTM mike do the same helping hoons get parts and such. Both seem to be great guys who love bikes I wouldn't hesitate to purchase from either one. But I would still like to see a straight up the products with the stuff I listed above.
I've never seen a price on a TTM conversion and I'm sure it varies an the Gen of the frame among other things. And I don't know what AJ charges for a frame conversion. Any chance of getting the both of you to chime in on that. May that should be another thread.
well i will now have 2 TTM bikes to my collection, my first one is a zero hour frame and zero hour motor....i gave myself an open checkbook to this build....i got every option on this bike...i really did make this one my true dream bike ...i will list the options as well as pics over the weekend, i will also share the exact cost of it.
my second TTM bike that i just commisioned with mike is going to be a budget bike, im using my 01' motor into a 2004 cr125 i picked up today for $1,500....but i did buy a 2002 (frame only) on the side for the actual conversion so i could get a green sticker for it. i am going to reuse whatever i can on this one....i will spend money on doing the suspension for my fat ass and i will buy new pipe and silencer with sparky...as for everything else im trying to keep it as close to how i bought it. i should have a final cost in a few days with this one.
the other thing that TTM does that SH does not is heat treat the frames...so its not just how pretty one is vs the other.
i'll post the bike and list the options in its own thread over the weekend.
Posted: December 4th, 2008, 8:07 pm
by arleybeer40
Better fuker
Cant wait to see that thing at adelanto!
Posted: December 4th, 2008, 8:09 pm
by teamdns
arleybeer40 wrote:Better fuker
Cant wait to see that thing at adelanto!
i'll bring em' both. one to share and one to sleep next to!
Posted: December 4th, 2008, 8:10 pm
by arleybeer40
better make sure you have mav warm the pipe up first, its cold as fuck out there
Posted: December 4th, 2008, 10:04 pm
by 97af
Uzi wrote:
MICK wrote:
But what's a prettier looking frame worth to me?? Not a whole lot...
I'm glad to see some else say that. I mean it is after all a dirt bike and I'm a function over looks type person but thats just personal preference
Geez guys!
You're not spending $800.00 on a clapped out dirt bike here,you're dropping 10 times that coin on either X or Y manufactures Aluminum framed 500. If I hear "Its only a dirt bike" one more time,I'm gonna lose it.In "04",we built a new house.In just about every phase of the build,there was a group of "specialist" that I just couldn't believe we were writing a check to have them do what they were doing. In "05",I bought a brand new tractor,not MTD home depot special ($30K) and a brand new Diesel pickup ($40 something K) A considerable chunk "o" change. Both of them had needed minor service service work early on. I wont get into exact details of what they did because the "its only a dirt bike" crowd wouldn't have thought twice about what they did....But their attitude about MY stuff was "its only a tractor" or "its just a truck" really friggen burned my ass. Obviously this isn't a manufacture fit or finish problem but the "I'll never see it from my garage" attitude towards someone Else's stuff is, and its just un-acceptable. Which, in this thread is just rolling into the end user not giving 2 sh ts about what "IS" in his garage.....I just don't friggen get it. Sub standard work and or service has become the norm, expected and tolerated in this country and it's just wrong. I was brought up as a kid were precision and excellence was ALWAYS expected and anything less was NOT tolerated at all.
Man.....People,start having some pride in your stuff already.
EDIT: AJ and Mike...Please dont take this post as directed to either one of you. I'm just a ticked off guy when it comes to all the service personel out there in general that dont give a rats ass about the customer and the customer just rolling over and taking it thinking "its just the way that it is".......
Posted: December 5th, 2008, 5:45 am
by teamdns
MICK wrote:
Mikes bikes look spectacular. Better than my S/H without question. But looks aren't the only thing that motivate my purchase decision. Will Mike drive to my house to fix a transmission hiccup like S/H did? Will Mike answer his phone every day of the week to answer my questions and trouble shoot things? Can Mike overnight hard parts to me so I don't miss a ride? Maybe he can maybe he can't? But owning a Service Honda does come with the satisfaction that your bike is covered indefinately if something goes wrong.
i dont recall redrocket or jay lewis ever getting one of their ignitions driven to them so the they could get their bike going (correct me if im wrong guys) but i do remember mike fachar going out of his way for redrocket to get his ingnition fix...not bad for a guy who didnt even purchase a bike from you.
MICK wrote: I took these pictures tonight so I apologize for the poor lighting. But this is my bike after seven years of riding and racing. Given the number of CR500AF's S/H produces, the work done to my bike I feel is more than satisfactory. It curtainly has nothing fundamentally flawed in design as it's taken my abuse in full stride. As is the case with Mikes builds, I would expect a higher quality of finish than this. But what's a prettier looking frame worth to me?? Not a whole lot....
mick, are you not pissed that you paid the same money as the next guy that may have gotten a better looking conversion from service honda? why would you settle? you wouldnt accept a brand new vehicle with a big dent in the side of it or misaligned bumpers would you? after all it wouldnt impact the ride quality or performance.....then why settle on a dirt bike... if service honda truely stands behind their products why have they not replaced your frame as well as stouffers. with TTM i will NEVER have to defend the build quality of the bike..period
MICK wrote:
Not much different than Stoffers. Save for maybe a better picture. But given the initial cost, years of wonderfull riding experiences, reliability and follow up support I coulnd't be happier. TTM's bikes look nice...but my Service Honda isn't going anywhere..
could you imagine if honda, or any of the OE manufacturers put out work like this? who would buy it?
MICK wrote:The pictures thrown around of the AFX above are obviously one of S/H's worst builds. Mistakes happen.
yes mistakes do happen, just dont sell them to your customers and pass them off as quality for a premium price.
Posted: December 5th, 2008, 6:12 am
by AlisoBob
Posted: December 5th, 2008, 6:44 am
by Exnav
97af - post of the year, couldn't agree more.
Posted: December 5th, 2008, 7:40 am
by AlisoBob
teamdns wrote:[....could you imagine if honda, or any of the OE manufacturers put out work like this? who would buy it?
http://www.pepboys.com/parts_accessorie ... ini_bikes/
That woudnt fly, even at PeP Boyz....
Posted: December 5th, 2008, 10:48 am
by teemtrubble
I saw a SH bike and said I gotta have one of those, a friend of mine bought one and upon delivery the first thing I noticed was how it looked cosmetically and wasn't impressed I told my friend for that kind of money I could build one of those bikes. His response was "yeah right" and here we are...
It's become a level of acceptance in all industries. It's a shame... and any one who say's it's just a dirt bike has just become another sheep. I'm a DOD contractor and started building bikes because I wanted something better. If I choose to take building bikes to the next level which probably will happen soon. I know our products and services surpass anything and anyone out there and my customers know it and that's what matters even Frank.
Posted: December 5th, 2008, 11:23 am
by Balaclava
teemtrubble wrote:I saw a SH bike and said I gotta have one of those, a friend of mine bought one and upon delivery the first thing I noticed was how it looked cosmetically and wasn't impressed I told my friend for that kind of money I could build one of those bikes. His response was "yeah right" and here we are...
I believe you mean, "half that money''...i've done it twice for the price of one s/h...actually i've done it twice and it was still less then ONE service honda bike...
Posted: December 5th, 2008, 11:37 am
by AlisoBob
Balaclava wrote:...and it was still less then ONE service honda bike...
But it wasent all brand new, was it?
Posted: December 5th, 2008, 11:42 am
by redrocket190
This is the welding from my '07 Service Honda. As a layman - and comparing them to Honda's welds elsewhere - I say they were "OK", functional but not pretty. They are not what TTM puts out nor I suspect the quality that Bob's gets from his racecar fab place. But back when I got this bike I was knee-deep in racing and doing several vintage restorations; another "project" was simply not on. And I did not have all the direct and indirect knowledge that I have now via this Board, meeting some of the hoons etc. So, bottom line it was buy "built"or nothing. Today I might consider a full DIY approach, and would very probably consider some form of complete kit. Competition is the best driver for quality, price and innovation and there is not an apples for apples alternative to Service Honda at this time.
FWIW, AJ sent a complete replacement ignition and harness and I believe he would have traded to the Electrosport set up for stock Honda parts too. By circumstance Mike at TTM stepped up first.
Posted: December 5th, 2008, 11:45 am
by AlisoBob
I have more issues with the parts alignment, than the welding...
The bottom of your tank looks better than others I have seen too Mike, not bad.
Like snowflakes, their all different....
Posted: December 5th, 2008, 11:56 am
by Balaclava
AlisoBob wrote:Balaclava wrote:...and it was still less then ONE service honda bike...
But it wasent all brand new, was it?
no it wasn't...but like i give a shit about brand new...i thought it was so great that my new 06 450 had never been touched before...but it wouldn't have made a difference i pounded the crap out of that bike this year...my 500's are both 2002-2003 so they have 4 years exerience on my 06 450, and honestly they both look better then it...all it takes is a bit of $$ to blast em' and then ''booyah'' they look like brand spanking new bikes!! these frames are easily as nice as any service honda or mps work i've EVER seen.
