My observations on the AF's
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Ported&Polished
- Posts: 1898
- Joined: June 23rd, 2007, 12:47 pm
- Location: Prescott
Slow old Fart wrote: Honda actually went backwards in alot of way's after 87 in some handling issues and I feel they did not trully go forward in most regards until they introduced the 2002 CR 250.
I didn't ride much in these years BUT if I think McGrath rode the 93 frame till 96 cause it was the best handling frame Honda ever made, correct me if I am wrong. Also he left in 97 cause of the AF and went to Sushity. I would have to say that being slow, what we call fast, or reading whatever will never compare to MC's knowledge of the bike. I had an 88' 500 and it was just that, an 88' 500. The motors on the 250's changed a lot back then and I owned the lame ass 02 cr250, rode it for 5 great yrs. The 90's motors were way better. The RC valve was a great idea and the case reeds were good on 125's but the chassis and brakes were the only things worth a shit on those bikes. After some mods, I loved my 250 but stock, CRAPPPP. IMO Honda's 250 motors suck, ride a Yamaha 250 and .... that's how they should run. I ride Red but can't agree with the 87's and so being so great. Bikes changed way to much in the 90's to compare to the 80's.
As far as a 500 goes, whatever year floats your boat, they never changed much anyways after 90. I did like the way the 86, 87 bikes looked though
Huh?
Who is this dude anyhow? and what the hell is he saying? I want pictures and all of where this guy has been and of his commie bikes....this dude it out there - way out there ..........
He is obvously demented and comes out of left field with his spooge posts.
I have SADDLE TIME at GLAMIS big time I know what I am talking about. Been going there for 20 years and other hard pack places like the bitchen lake beds of Johnson Valley and also the Cleveland National Forest and also Anza Borrego Park and Ocotillo Wells and also El Mirage dry lake bed and Indian Wells and Stoddard Valley and Dumont Dunes as well as Pismo Beach.
The old bikes ping and over heat and are a spooge to start (I weigh 196LBS) and I sold my '86 to a 300LB dude who could NOT START IT..and he used my old AP Star boot so it would not ruin his leg and he STILL COULD NOT START THE THING - So I bull kicked it to show him it was fresh and ran great - hope he has a good time with that bike now...hehe
BTW - my '01 has max Compresion and ported and all and can go as long as you have daylight......Awesome machine and needs no special mods to make that happen. Ported and Polished can start his '91 CR5 with house slippers on......hehe
And yes I take it I can post here even though I don't have a beer can bike...cause I can !
Say something relevant and not a lot of rhetoric on politics and commies - cause there aren't commies anymore unless you are one - the Cold War ended with president Reagan - and this is no place to talk about your political views this is a CR500 SECTION - use the proper forum for your political views.
get a GRIP - are you a big old fart? Try the sand Dunes - the Ultimate playground is awaiting your arrival.
Shut your pie hole and ride
Freemer
He is obvously demented and comes out of left field with his spooge posts.
I have SADDLE TIME at GLAMIS big time I know what I am talking about. Been going there for 20 years and other hard pack places like the bitchen lake beds of Johnson Valley and also the Cleveland National Forest and also Anza Borrego Park and Ocotillo Wells and also El Mirage dry lake bed and Indian Wells and Stoddard Valley and Dumont Dunes as well as Pismo Beach.
The old bikes ping and over heat and are a spooge to start (I weigh 196LBS) and I sold my '86 to a 300LB dude who could NOT START IT..and he used my old AP Star boot so it would not ruin his leg and he STILL COULD NOT START THE THING - So I bull kicked it to show him it was fresh and ran great - hope he has a good time with that bike now...hehe
BTW - my '01 has max Compresion and ported and all and can go as long as you have daylight......Awesome machine and needs no special mods to make that happen. Ported and Polished can start his '91 CR5 with house slippers on......hehe
And yes I take it I can post here even though I don't have a beer can bike...cause I can !
Say something relevant and not a lot of rhetoric on politics and commies - cause there aren't commies anymore unless you are one - the Cold War ended with president Reagan - and this is no place to talk about your political views this is a CR500 SECTION - use the proper forum for your political views.
get a GRIP - are you a big old fart? Try the sand Dunes - the Ultimate playground is awaiting your arrival.
Shut your pie hole and ride
Freemer
Nothing .....
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Slow old Fart
- Posts: 444
- Joined: February 12th, 2008, 6:19 am
I love writing about these bikes. I bought my first CR 500 in late 87 it was a 84 model. I had been out of the loop for 5 year's but always followed the mags and that was when they somewhat told the truth and how it was.
I was talking to some of the Racer's at the shop that day and they were not happy with the new 88 CR 250. They liked the 87 much better. Well guess what it was the first year of the newer style delta box on the 250 and the shop did not like it. They all agreed that the older prolink was a better working rear end. You see Honda had a problem at this time the linkages and bolt hook ups were not heavy duty enough for the newer faster riders coming along and guy's who jumped hard were bending them and the frames were not beefy enough as well.
At the same time Honda was trying to make the bike better for the rigors of jumping for Joe local super xer they also decided to cut cost. This was the first year of the no braided brake lines and no exspensive anodizing + they made the linkages more heavy duty but cheapned the swing arm up by doing a box design rather than the taper we have today and had in 87 250 and 87 n 88 500.
The arm was cheaper to manufacture but was flimsy in comparison and the weight distribution was inferior. So they gave us a tougher bike but inferior working rear end. And the racers who were there at the time were pissed. The bike was better in alot of ways low boy pipe tougher frame,better shock set up,better ergos, tighter rake for super x but when it came to blitzing whoops the bike was inferior as far as the rear end worked and tracked.
Then in 89 the 500 got the same treatment and both got the dreaded 1st year upside down. The 89's suffered from deadly head shake especially the 250, put you in the grave deadly. The bikes were moving in the super x direction they needed to go but were taking 2 steps back in some ways to one foward.
If you look at a swing arm on a 1989 thru 1995 250 n 125 or a 1989 - 2001 500 and compare it to a 1987 250 125 or 1987 88 Cr 500 you will notice the ass end is plain flimsy in comparison and of a inferior design.
Honda did this to try and save money to compensate for where they were putting more money in other areas of the bike.
The 87 88 could not steer as quick and the ergos were old school but they had a great working rear end and the front and rear hooked up all the time no matter the conditions.
Magrath liked the 93 better because it steered better for what he did SUPER X. Honda kept playing around with the steering geometry on the bike to try and get them to work in all conditions they could not. That is why Mcgrath liked the 96 motor in a 93 frame because it had a rake he liked.
When Honda started kicking the rake in for Super x they lost high speed stability and steering in loose terrain it was a trade off. That is why alot of people felt Honda got lost because they had a good all around handler in 87 88 and scraped it for a potentionaly better design but limited in use in certain areas where the old school chasses could do more well.
Honda finally admitted the rear could be better in 96 when they went to a real beefy box swing arm on the 250 and 125 but they cracked and broke up front. The 500 only got new KYB's but retained the kraft macaroni and cheese swingarm.
The Kawies of that period had a trully superior working rearend my 94 KX 250 just mopped the floor wit a Honda rear end of this period no comparo. Honda had to do something and they new it so in 96 they tried to put more beef back into rear end but it was not until 97 they finally admitted the 87 88 tapered design was superior and started using it again even though it was more expsensive to produce.
Of couse we know it was the first aluma tub which is considered one of the most finicky chasses ever made and hated by millions and loved only by thousands. I am not trying to insult but if you talk to the people who trully raced that thing they will tell you keep the motor and sell the rest as scrap. That is not to say it does not make a good 500 but definetly a poor 250.
I feel like I said Honda finally trully went foward in 2002 with the Cr250 chasses. It hanled all types of terrain real well and could be riden anywhere with little fuss but the motor was a total roach, well the people on this site have a answer for that one.
Honda really did get lost but it was inevitable to happen transforming to a modern super xer that could be ridden at a pro level stock. For a pro level rider todays chasses are trully superior but it took 15 years to get it really sorted out!
For Joe average trail riding you want a chasses to give some for comfort and long rides so what works for Superman may slow you down just forget about the hoopla and make the bikes work for what you do.
Do not afraid to experiment with these aluminum bikes they are a work in progress being developed by us. 3 years ago I was ahead of just about everybody on this subject now I look around and can learn alot here and the projects really are great I see people building here so I am here to learn and help if I can.
On the other sites where I got canned I had these dopes arguing with me who did not know anything about the bikes so I had fun and got canned but today that has changed the Cr500 lives with a bunch of growing knowledge from sites like this and people who take the time to put them together so thanks Bob for making this possible for all of us!
I was talking to some of the Racer's at the shop that day and they were not happy with the new 88 CR 250. They liked the 87 much better. Well guess what it was the first year of the newer style delta box on the 250 and the shop did not like it. They all agreed that the older prolink was a better working rear end. You see Honda had a problem at this time the linkages and bolt hook ups were not heavy duty enough for the newer faster riders coming along and guy's who jumped hard were bending them and the frames were not beefy enough as well.
At the same time Honda was trying to make the bike better for the rigors of jumping for Joe local super xer they also decided to cut cost. This was the first year of the no braided brake lines and no exspensive anodizing + they made the linkages more heavy duty but cheapned the swing arm up by doing a box design rather than the taper we have today and had in 87 250 and 87 n 88 500.
The arm was cheaper to manufacture but was flimsy in comparison and the weight distribution was inferior. So they gave us a tougher bike but inferior working rear end. And the racers who were there at the time were pissed. The bike was better in alot of ways low boy pipe tougher frame,better shock set up,better ergos, tighter rake for super x but when it came to blitzing whoops the bike was inferior as far as the rear end worked and tracked.
Then in 89 the 500 got the same treatment and both got the dreaded 1st year upside down. The 89's suffered from deadly head shake especially the 250, put you in the grave deadly. The bikes were moving in the super x direction they needed to go but were taking 2 steps back in some ways to one foward.
If you look at a swing arm on a 1989 thru 1995 250 n 125 or a 1989 - 2001 500 and compare it to a 1987 250 125 or 1987 88 Cr 500 you will notice the ass end is plain flimsy in comparison and of a inferior design.
Honda did this to try and save money to compensate for where they were putting more money in other areas of the bike.
The 87 88 could not steer as quick and the ergos were old school but they had a great working rear end and the front and rear hooked up all the time no matter the conditions.
Magrath liked the 93 better because it steered better for what he did SUPER X. Honda kept playing around with the steering geometry on the bike to try and get them to work in all conditions they could not. That is why Mcgrath liked the 96 motor in a 93 frame because it had a rake he liked.
When Honda started kicking the rake in for Super x they lost high speed stability and steering in loose terrain it was a trade off. That is why alot of people felt Honda got lost because they had a good all around handler in 87 88 and scraped it for a potentionaly better design but limited in use in certain areas where the old school chasses could do more well.
Honda finally admitted the rear could be better in 96 when they went to a real beefy box swing arm on the 250 and 125 but they cracked and broke up front. The 500 only got new KYB's but retained the kraft macaroni and cheese swingarm.
The Kawies of that period had a trully superior working rearend my 94 KX 250 just mopped the floor wit a Honda rear end of this period no comparo. Honda had to do something and they new it so in 96 they tried to put more beef back into rear end but it was not until 97 they finally admitted the 87 88 tapered design was superior and started using it again even though it was more expsensive to produce.
Of couse we know it was the first aluma tub which is considered one of the most finicky chasses ever made and hated by millions and loved only by thousands. I am not trying to insult but if you talk to the people who trully raced that thing they will tell you keep the motor and sell the rest as scrap. That is not to say it does not make a good 500 but definetly a poor 250.
I feel like I said Honda finally trully went foward in 2002 with the Cr250 chasses. It hanled all types of terrain real well and could be riden anywhere with little fuss but the motor was a total roach, well the people on this site have a answer for that one.
Honda really did get lost but it was inevitable to happen transforming to a modern super xer that could be ridden at a pro level stock. For a pro level rider todays chasses are trully superior but it took 15 years to get it really sorted out!
For Joe average trail riding you want a chasses to give some for comfort and long rides so what works for Superman may slow you down just forget about the hoopla and make the bikes work for what you do.
Do not afraid to experiment with these aluminum bikes they are a work in progress being developed by us. 3 years ago I was ahead of just about everybody on this subject now I look around and can learn alot here and the projects really are great I see people building here so I am here to learn and help if I can.
On the other sites where I got canned I had these dopes arguing with me who did not know anything about the bikes so I had fun and got canned but today that has changed the Cr500 lives with a bunch of growing knowledge from sites like this and people who take the time to put them together so thanks Bob for making this possible for all of us!
Last edited by Slow old Fart on February 14th, 2008, 9:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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britincali
- Posts: 8207
- Joined: May 31st, 2007, 7:10 pm
- Location: Barstow, CA
Great posts indeed. It gave me some additional info on the period of time that I had been away from dirt bikes.
For Joe average trail riding you want a chasses to give some for comfort and long rides so what works for Superman may slow you down just forget about the hoopla and make the bikes work for what you do.
The above really points it out to me though! I think I will be fine with my Gen1 conversion. I'm under no illusions as to my ability.
For Joe average trail riding you want a chasses to give some for comfort and long rides so what works for Superman may slow you down just forget about the hoopla and make the bikes work for what you do.
The above really points it out to me though! I think I will be fine with my Gen1 conversion. I'm under no illusions as to my ability.
Money ain't got no owners, only spenders - Omar Little
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britincali
- Posts: 8207
- Joined: May 31st, 2007, 7:10 pm
- Location: Barstow, CA
Exnav wrote:
The above really points it out to me though! I think I will be fine with my Gen1 conversion. I'm under no illusions as to my ability.
Im at best a D rider, my gen 1 gave me tons more confidence than the 87 it was born from. Because of that it gave me more balls and made me a better rider. I don't care what anyone states about the frame being too stiff etc etc
I love mine and am wayyyy faster on it than I ever was on my 87.
Coolness list by 90cr500guy
Bob's = 50/50
Cepek = cool
Solidbro = cool
Brit = loser
Stoffer = 1 up from Brit
MFDB = cool
Danny = ok
Bob's = 50/50
Cepek = cool
Solidbro = cool
Brit = loser
Stoffer = 1 up from Brit
MFDB = cool
Danny = ok
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dannygraves
- Posts: 8020
- Joined: June 1st, 2007, 2:03 pm
- Location: Las Vegas, NV
A HUGE X2!britincali wrote:Exnav wrote:
The above really points it out to me though! I think I will be fine with my Gen1 conversion. I'm under no illusions as to my ability.
Im at best a D rider, my gen 1 gave me tons more confidence than the 87 it was born from. Because of that it gave me more balls and made me a better rider. I don't care what anyone states about the frame being too stiff etc etc
I love mine and am wayyyy faster on it than I ever was on my 87.
'09 kx450f 4-Poke
Gen-4 trail bike --SOLD--
Gen-3 badass trail/mx bike --SOLD--
Gen-1 built dunes bike --SOLD--
'05 klx110 --SOLD--
'95 pw80
Gen-4 trail bike --SOLD--
Gen-3 badass trail/mx bike --SOLD--
Gen-1 built dunes bike --SOLD--
'05 klx110 --SOLD--
'95 pw80
I try to stay out of this " Frame too stiff " stuff.... be explain too me how with 12+" of travel, WTF does frame stiffness have to do with it?britincali wrote:I don't care what anyone states about the frame being too stiff etc etc
Additionally ..EVERY form of motorsports I know of ( with the exception of Karting, where the frame IS the suspension) you WANT the frame as stiff as possible so its one less variable to tune..
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Slow old Fart
- Posts: 444
- Joined: February 12th, 2008, 6:19 am
It is all what works for you, in my terrain my 88 87 style bike would cream my 97. I ran a 19" dirt track front wheel with a 125 rear tire on my 97 to try and get it to hook up where I ride and it helped alot but then when I put my 88 back together I was just plain faster on it for off road.
On my 88 in the whoops I would just rip on these guy's on new bikes like they were not there but these are sand whoops in solid hard pack the flexiness of the chasses became apparent and could be dangerous but the bike could do somethings for me like no other.
These bikes were sprung and valved for me and that means alot when evaluating a bike. In some conditions flex makes you go fatser that is why Scott Summers will not give up his convetional forks. For long rides if you are sensitive to fatique in the hands they relieve alot of it. If you rip UDS are better for super ruff riding a 100% go like mot x but when you are trying to ride for hours conventionals can make you go faster longer. They add a flex point to the bike which a Aluma tub does not have because of the twin spar design up top.
The aluminum frames are of a road race design designed to keep the front end from flexing at all. On a road race bike going into a corner at a buck 30 and then have the front end wonder around because of frame flex could be deadly.
The Honda's are moslty rigid as hell because of this and it transmits more energy to the body than the old single back bone design. The old design was known to flex as much as 10mm or more under super x conditions so they were much more forgiving even though the front end was moving around more. This is why Mcgrath could not adapt to it,he was acustomed to some give in the chasses and the bike did not have it.
I am used to this as well but you take a kid who has only been riding for 10 years he will be used to the new super rigid stuff that is designed to hit opsticals at light speed.
A KTM is a crap super x bike but people like them for off road for the old school feel but sorry KTM you really need to put a linkage back on the bike to make the rear more tunable.
The conventional forks on a alumatub put a flex point in the bike and really make them beat you up less. The 98 RM forks were the best of that time period but the new upside downs are totally superior to them in action but they do not flex so a RM 1998 has a advantage in that regard. If you have a 19 97 98 99 conversion the RM forks could be magic that bike is a board to ride. The RM fork Tech wise is as good as those but he 2003 and especially the 2004 and newer Showas are really quit a bit better fork in ride and design. The new KYB on the Kawie is suppossed to be GREAT but the newer KYB's are known to be not made as well and not as durable in crash situations but in action better than the Showa. More of a race fork.
You can get a set of 98 or 97 RM forks cheap on Ebay and I Think they would help a GEN 1 like crazy and make the bike way more enjoyable for off roading.
It is a shame nobody makes a state of the art conventional becasue for off roading they are better in a lot of ways.
On my 88 in the whoops I would just rip on these guy's on new bikes like they were not there but these are sand whoops in solid hard pack the flexiness of the chasses became apparent and could be dangerous but the bike could do somethings for me like no other.
These bikes were sprung and valved for me and that means alot when evaluating a bike. In some conditions flex makes you go fatser that is why Scott Summers will not give up his convetional forks. For long rides if you are sensitive to fatique in the hands they relieve alot of it. If you rip UDS are better for super ruff riding a 100% go like mot x but when you are trying to ride for hours conventionals can make you go faster longer. They add a flex point to the bike which a Aluma tub does not have because of the twin spar design up top.
The aluminum frames are of a road race design designed to keep the front end from flexing at all. On a road race bike going into a corner at a buck 30 and then have the front end wonder around because of frame flex could be deadly.
The Honda's are moslty rigid as hell because of this and it transmits more energy to the body than the old single back bone design. The old design was known to flex as much as 10mm or more under super x conditions so they were much more forgiving even though the front end was moving around more. This is why Mcgrath could not adapt to it,he was acustomed to some give in the chasses and the bike did not have it.
I am used to this as well but you take a kid who has only been riding for 10 years he will be used to the new super rigid stuff that is designed to hit opsticals at light speed.
A KTM is a crap super x bike but people like them for off road for the old school feel but sorry KTM you really need to put a linkage back on the bike to make the rear more tunable.
The conventional forks on a alumatub put a flex point in the bike and really make them beat you up less. The 98 RM forks were the best of that time period but the new upside downs are totally superior to them in action but they do not flex so a RM 1998 has a advantage in that regard. If you have a 19 97 98 99 conversion the RM forks could be magic that bike is a board to ride. The RM fork Tech wise is as good as those but he 2003 and especially the 2004 and newer Showas are really quit a bit better fork in ride and design. The new KYB on the Kawie is suppossed to be GREAT but the newer KYB's are known to be not made as well and not as durable in crash situations but in action better than the Showa. More of a race fork.
You can get a set of 98 or 97 RM forks cheap on Ebay and I Think they would help a GEN 1 like crazy and make the bike way more enjoyable for off roading.
It is a shame nobody makes a state of the art conventional becasue for off roading they are better in a lot of ways.
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Slow old Fart
- Posts: 444
- Joined: February 12th, 2008, 6:19 am
In drag racing some classes want flex to put the power down especially fueler'sAlisoBob wrote:I try to stay out of this " Frame too stiff " stuff.... be explain too me how with 12+" of travel, WTF does frame stiffness have to do with it?britincali wrote:I don't care what anyone states about the frame being too stiff etc etc
Additionally ..EVERY form of motorsports I know of ( with the exception of Karting, where the frame IS the suspension) you WANT the frame as stiff as possible so its one less variable to tune..
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iggys-amsoil
- Posts: 3602
- Joined: June 1st, 2007, 6:09 pm
- Location: Just North of March Airfield CA
It also comes down to rider ability.AlisoBob wrote:I try to stay out of this " Frame too stiff " stuff.... be explain too me how with 12+" of travel, WTF does frame stiffness have to do with it?britincali wrote:I don't care what anyone states about the frame being too stiff etc etc
The better ones skills are the more one will notice different stuff.
Trinity Racing mild porting FMF
62 pilot, EGH needle, 172 main
03 Gen III CR250 frame
2013 Dodger Charger 5.7 Hemi
http://www.prisonplanet.com
Your Amsoil Customer # 350882
62 pilot, EGH needle, 172 main
03 Gen III CR250 frame
2013 Dodger Charger 5.7 Hemi
http://www.prisonplanet.com
Your Amsoil Customer # 350882
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Slow old Fart
- Posts: 444
- Joined: February 12th, 2008, 6:19 am
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Ported&Polished
- Posts: 1898
- Joined: June 23rd, 2007, 12:47 pm
- Location: Prescott
How do you know your a A B or C rider? Is there a chart somewhere that says how to grade yourself? I had a good rider (better than me) tell me one time he thought I was a B rider, but until I sterted reading these websites I'd never even heard of that stuff, I just rode. I do know that since I been riding since I was a little kid I have seen many riders that could do big jumps and long wheelies that I couldn't do, but I could go faster through the desert than them. How can you say if your a A B or C without knowing what the graduation level is?
Don't Clyde it, ride it!
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britincali
- Posts: 8207
- Joined: May 31st, 2007, 7:10 pm
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