Fuel Injection, latest and greatest?

Post by **AlisoBob** » September 27th, 2011, 6:58 pm

Rhino89523 wrote:....being able to fix stuff with a few basic tools when your 35 miles from your house by yourself on your 500 is a huge advantage too. K.I.S.S.

Yuppers.....

A good runnin' PWK is hard to beat

bearorso · Post by **bearorso** » September 27th, 2011, 7:24 pm

Rhino89523 wrote:What is it about EFI you guys want so bad, I don't get it. So much work, cash, and extra parts to break to squeeze a few pony's out of a bike so few can use the pony's that are already there. I have carbs on all my stuff we use in the forest and desert and a carb has never left me walking.....I drag home new sensor filled EFI trucks all the time. I understand the advantages but being able to fix stuff with a few basic tools when your 35 miles from your house by yourself on your 500 is a huge advantage too. K.I.S.S. maybe I live by that too much.....does this mean I am officially old?

I don't see anyone here 'wanting EFI so bad'. Just some people showing interest in something that 'Might' be a good thing. As I wrote, it would have to offer some definite benefits over my oval bored 38AS carb, for me to spend money on it. All I ever need to do is adjust the air screw and idle, and perhaps change the needle clip position.

But it's great to see some attention being paid to 2t development - I would think most here would appreciate it from that viewpoint, at least.

Rhino89523 · Post by **Rhino89523** » September 27th, 2011, 8:54 pm

Yeah I hear that, any 2 stroke development is a good thing. I don't know a thing about what it would take but don't some watercraft and outboard motors for boats already run efi to pass some of the emissions crap in california ? Why can't those sensors be adapted to monitor the bike setup and then just adapt one of the bodies they are putting on some of these new fart can bikes? Anyway I'll check out of this thread I'm still running a steel framed bone stock 500 with the stock Pj carb and I'm happy as a clam. I think I'm getting old and set in my ways.

2strokeforever · Post by **2strokeforever** » September 27th, 2011, 9:32 pm

What is it about EFI you guys want so bad, I don't get it

first of all it comes with a programable cdi, and the EFI for less than vortex wants for the CDI.....

easier starting (the ignition map does that)
way better stall resistance (both will help quite a bit)
more torque
cleaner running
once its tuned you dont gotta think "i hope im not running lean"
better fuel efficiency
no fuel poured out on the ground, ill pour some out at the truck to compensate

and my tank will still be full
did i mention never unscrewing a carb to swap a clip, needle, jets....

now the part im not looking forward to....
you need to type in your engines volumetric efficiency, and from that it calculates load, then it compensates for altitude, air temp, engine temp, air pressure, TPS...... and then tells the injectors how long to stay open

how the hell am i gonna figure that out, 2 stroke VE is gonna be impossible to figure out

i guess i will have to spend a week practicing the "ride and feel" and swapping #s till it runs good

already got the software and getting it ready, ignition map already saved

Kuma · Post by **Kuma** » September 28th, 2011, 10:45 am

Rhino89523 wrote:Yeah I hear that, any 2 stroke development is a good thing. I don't know a thing about what it would take but don't some watercraft and outboard motors for boats already run efi to pass some of the emissions crap in california ? Why can't those sensors be adapted to monitor the bike setup and then just adapt one of the bodies they are putting on some of these new fart can bikes? Anyway I'll check out of this thread I'm still running a steel framed bone stock 500 with the stock Pj carb and I'm happy as a clam. I think I'm getting old and set in my ways.

Pretty sure there are 2 stroke sleds with EFI also

bearorso · Post by **bearorso** » September 28th, 2011, 10:24 pm

Twostrokesforever put a Very Good point forward, with regards to the cost.

A better CDI set up is the sort of thing that can take 1/2 the cost of this from the big hit of his proposed $1000 / $1300. Something that I had not considered - I'm getting a bit slow on the thinking side at times

So I'll keep that in mind, as I would very much like a modern, adjustable ignition at some time.

Lets just see if it will be made to work well through the full range of revs, the fellows posts earlier seemed to place 'performance / racing' use into the high rev area, not realizing, it appears, that dirt bikes are used all through their rev range, especially a low revving engine like big 2 ts.

2strokeforever · Post by **2strokeforever** » September 29th, 2011, 8:13 am

A better CDI set up is the sort of thing that can take 1/2 the cost of this from the big hit of his proposed $1000 / $1300. Something that I had not considered

the entire EFI kit with the CDI (all the software is free) is $600+ tax, that includes the dual injector setup, a small one for good atomisation at low revs and the big one and small one for WFO

you cant get a stock carb and cdi for that price

if i werent broke from frying my engine it would be here already

bearorso · Post by **bearorso** » September 29th, 2011, 12:36 pm

2strokeforever wrote:
A better CDI set up is the sort of thing that can take 1/2 the cost of this from the big hit of his proposed $1000 / $1300. Something that I had not considered
the entire EFI kit with the CDI (all the software is free) is $600+ tax, that includes the dual injector setup, a small one for good atomisation at low revs and the big one and small one for WFO

you cant get a stock carb and cdi for that price

if i werent broke from frying my engine it would be here already

I assume your talking about your own kit that you're setting up???

HGT are putting out the $1300.00 figure.

TwoStroke Motocross are taking their project 144 to Colorado, to have it fitted. I placed in the comments section your reference about getting a, assumed, much better CDI / ignition within the price. As well as putting out there that him getting distributors would only serve to make the price higher, And give Him less of a margin. For products like this, a distribution set up is an outmoded, potentially product killing marketing model. Good set up instructions, and company internet / customer interfacing is the way to go. I think the fellow is not very familiar with dirt bikes, you could see that in an instant with him not knowing that the PWK key dimensions would cover damned near everything out there. Not a criticism - I sure as fuck have not the slightest idea of computer tech, for example. He needs to get a range of bikes, locally (he's in Colorado, I think) and get the data together. You know, YZs between 06 to 11, later RMs, CRs, KTMs. Base line settings with comprehensive instructions, and , if it's as good as it could be, it should be 'safer' than when people get a new aftermarket Keihin, or a 2nd hand one. Plenty of people fuck up with brass jets and alloy needles. IF the software that comes with it is easy to use, and he has good customer service (which, from his involvement in the comments section of the story, he certainly has ) and it should be a no (well, a minimal) brainer.

As I said TwoSrtoke, your pointing out the modern, hopefully very good, CDI set up, within the price, reduced my scepticism of pricing. Good on Ya!

A modern, adjustable CDI has always been on my 'to do' list, eventually, as I will have my 500 till I cark it. So doubling the price of it, if it all tests out well, to get EFI that Might far surpass my well sorted Keihin isn't out of kilter. Factor in the price of say, an Intellijet, perhaps a reed block and, once again, the price isn't so much of a concern.

I wish him well, same to you, TwoStrokeforever, with EFI. I'm a three dimensional bloke: frames, suspension, engines and fabrication is where I keep myself to.

Anything else, and I think my feeble old brain would explode.

Here's the kit pick - throttle body is to the left of the CD. He could further reduce the end price, give himself a bit more income, if he didn't have the throttle body with changeable inlet and outlet flanges. He might come to realize that the one body will do 95% of his potential market, as he gets a few bikes / engines coming through to him during development.

Batteries - Surely the ultra trick RC ones out there can do the job. But, once again , I'm a electrical drongo. My HM set up, might be enough, buggered if I know.

2strokeforever · Post by **2strokeforever** » September 29th, 2011, 1:00 pm

heres the one i will be using if i go that route, already sent a bunch of emails, very helpful people to deal with

http://www.ecotrons.com/400cc_to_800cc_ ... I_kit.html
the kit for cr500 will have dual injectors small one for idle and big one for WFO

their software is free to ANYONE, i already have it and am starting on what i think is a good baseline

http://www.ecotrons.com/support.html

bearorso · Post by **bearorso** » September 29th, 2011, 2:47 pm

Two Strokes : The following is not me trying to argue in any way, just me being very up front with my electrical / computer tech ignorance. I had to get a mate around to fit in a 2 terabyte hard drive the other day, to add to the sad 160 meg computer I have, it took him about 10 minutes, even with partitioning it into 2 1 terabyte thingies............ I swapped his expertise and hard drive + parts for fabricating a turbo induction tube. There's use for us old bastards still.
I ran and hid, in case the little monsters that live in the 'puter came out to get me, after I blew a few years of workshop dust out of all the things that go, 'Ping'.

Is the ECU combined with a CDI, on that set up?

It doesn't seem to.

It seems that it has just the ECU, relating to control of the EFI alone. Still, I've saved the site details to keep an eye on it, and show a few mates that Do know their arses from their elbows, when it comes to this sort of thing.

It may be the same for the HGT kit, I may be being a doofus in thinking it also replaces the std CDI unit. So it may not be indirectly lowering the price, by including a new , adjustable CDI.

As I've said, my PWK works well, but, if these kits work well, offer real improvements, and are reliable, and did include a modern , adjustable CDI, I'd probably end up with one. Fuel pumps, extra inlets to my tank are no problem, as it's alloy, and I already have to have a fuel pump to get fuel to the carb, with the tank going all the way to the ignition cover. Plus the CRE already has a full wiring harness, that could do with a clean up, so including all the wiring would be no problem.

B440 · Post by **B440** » September 29th, 2011, 3:42 pm

I'm on board with ya 2strokeforever. If these internet forums were around in the mid 80's, there would be posts that say something like:

"Hey I'm going to try porting my CR500."
"Why would you want to do that!? It works great just the way it is."

My point: There will ALWAYS be naysayers.

I'd like to see this happen for the possibility of better fuel mileage. Everything else is just a bonus.

Bearorso: You did realize that we're not even talking about the HGT kit anymore, right? HGT and Ecotrons are using the same microcontroller:
Freescale's MC33812

Rhino89523 · Post by **Rhino89523** » September 29th, 2011, 4:21 pm

"Hey I'm going to try porting my CR500."
"Why would you want to do that!? It works great just the way it is."

I agree I love my stock porting too

Kuma · Post by **Kuma** » September 29th, 2011, 4:49 pm

I'd be up for messing around with EFI on the 500 IF it had a good elaectrical system, I think that is the first hurdle to get past before spending much $ and effort, If you are just wanting to ride motocross, then you could have a couple battery packs to swap out. like Rhino mentioned, being out in the desert and having any electrical gremlin and you could be in for a long walk, and hope you still have a bike waiting for you when you return for it.

Anyone that wants to mess around you can pick up a Cannondale ECU for about $50, wireing harness for another $50, they have been using harley injectors with sucess for plus 50hp motors, throttle body with sensors another $50, temp sensor crank position sensor probably $20 and you would have to make a special flywheel. and figure out how to make it squirt every revolution. For something that has been around for 12 years they actually work pretty good. they are also fully programable

2strokeforever · Post by **2strokeforever** » September 29th, 2011, 6:00 pm

since pickup location dosent matter it shouldnt be too hard to adapt a difrent stator on the 500
im thinking this one, maybe with the oem flywheel lightened to keep costs and gyros down, gonna have to flip the center piece around, honda put it backwards on their 450x
http://www.trailtech.net/SR-8251A.html

Ok, sounds like a go project. Our system can run this engine. Our CDI's limit is 12000rpm.
You will need 2x injectors to run this engine. both will be installed on the throttle body (42mm). The throttle total length will be 110mm. You will need to make sure the TB fit to your engine (reed valve?).

All components will be bigger than our regular 2T kits, because your engine cc is so big. The price for your engine will be higher than $499, because it's 2x Injectors system , more complicated than 4-stroke one injector system.

You are looking at $599, including the CDI ignition controls.

thanks,
Matt

i need to know if the flywheel/pickup location maters to the CDI, i am asking because there is flywheel/stator combos (off diffrent bikes) that will bolt on and give me enough power to run the efi system, but the pickup will be in a difrent spot, with a difrent length tab on the flywheel

i am also assuming i can program whatever map i want into your CDI, i already have the map i want, the big bore 2 strokes need the right map for easy starting and good stall resistance

Yes, you CAN.
You must find out the crankshaft angle between the tab's rising edge to TDC. That's the only info we need.
And yes, you can fully program the CDI ignition map (based on load and RPM).

thanks,
Matt

bearorso · Post by **bearorso** » September 29th, 2011, 7:02 pm

TwoStroke: So it does incorporate a New CDI, or at least a CDI interface that brings in adjustability. Cool - as I said, I'm an electrical doofus, but I can / will learn if it turns out to be a good thing.

Makes it Very affordable. Keeping in mind guys, I already have a stator that is supposedly rated at up to 200 watts (have to check it sometime), so I think I've no need to spend money on that front.

I forgot to mention, HGT have a 500AF on their 'coming in for set up' list, so they will have a base line, 'plug and play', in his words, set up, ready to go, for 500s.

I'll send him an E mail and see if he can get the owner to post up his verdict. Who knows, it might be someone from here.

bigred1977 · Post by **bigred1977** » October 9th, 2011, 3:14 am

one very crucial question you need to ask him,how many revolutions does his system require to register crank sync,and what rpm does the system reset,does he recommend just the one tooth set up or a larger say 12 to 1 or even 36 toothed wheel,this will be the achilies heel,not because of the system but because of the cr500.INTERSTING you need 2 injecters why? is the duty cycle so poor on the just one supplied that it can not handle a500cc at 100 percent.odd,the program should be a adjustable to the finest degree of injection timing.how does he plan to start from cold?infact ask him what experience he has setting up s2 strokes,but not just any,ask big bore single cylinders

2strokeforever · Post by **2strokeforever** » October 9th, 2011, 7:40 pm

forgot to mention, HGT have a 500AF on their 'coming in for set up' list

thats sweet, but the ecu is pretty big, and not epoxied, combined with the price thats a dealbreaker for me

INTERSTING you need 2 injecters why? is the duty cycle so poor on the just one supplied that it can not handle a500cc at 100 percent

dosent need 2 injectors but it must be tough to find a big injector to flow enough for WFO, AND still provide excelent atomisation while idling thru the bush
the computer automaticaly deals with the 2 injectors, tune it like it has 1 big injector

odd,the program should be a adjustable to the finest degree of injection timing.

it is, take a look at the program (free) if you have windows 7 you need to run in compatibility mode
http://www.ecotrons.com/support.html

how does he plan to start from cold?

MAP, coolant sensor, and a big spreadsheat for the enrinchment factor for which temps

trust me theres more adjustability than youd know what to do with

if you had a rough 500 volumetric efficiency table id be wanting to buy it....

here are some of its features

MAP
TPS
engine temp
air temp
02 sensor
tilt sensor

pressure to load conversion
tps based load mapping
air temp correction
altitude correction
load prediction MAP vs TPS

fuel
start conditions
start fuel factor
after start and warm up
transient fuel
decel cut off
injector size
fuel pump controls

ignition mapping relative to TPS
min ignition angle (set the idle a little high and it pulls idle timing to keep the idle speed constant)
overall adjustment

if an o2 sensor is hooked up type in desired lamda and the 02 sensor will make it happen

theres more
dwell time

2strokeforever · Post by **2strokeforever** » October 10th, 2011, 7:08 am

It requries only 2-3 revolutions to sync. for 2-strokes.
The lowest RPM can be even 120rpm. It depends on the trigger pulse width. Most engines starts more than 200rpms.

One tooth is the default setting for our ECU. We support multiple teeth, 12-1, 36-2, 60-2 etc. all calibratable. But not recommended, because of too much work.

I am located in Detroit, MI. Yes, I can help on rough tuning. I will give my phone #.

The tuning will be mainly on cold start, warm up, then TPS based Load table.

bigred1977 · Post by **bigred1977** » October 10th, 2011, 12:31 pm

funny that i have had completetly different replys from the same guy matt lee,he has never done a 500 before,and going on those specs,your in for a rocky road.the system he uses is a copy of a more reputable ecu,he did not even know that the cr500 was kickstart only!!i wish you all the best!!

bigred1977 · Post by **bigred1977** » October 10th, 2011, 12:38 pm

he also did not tell you that the one tooth pick up is crap for igntion control,he says that using a higher number trigger wheel is too much work,right,wrong it is the right thing to do for correct results,your cranking resoluition with one tooth is mundane,extra teeth more resoulution,finer tuning capabilities,your rpm signal will be all over the place at higher rpm,he uses a whole new cdi(from chinese pit bikes) for crank signal when all that is required is a 30c resisitor.trust me do some more digging mate ask a million questions as you will be throwing money down the drain.good luck.

2strokeforever · Post by **2strokeforever** » October 10th, 2011, 2:35 pm

still not 100% sure if im gonna go for it, the generator is gonna be a pain in the ass, and thinking about it, a carb is pretty lightweight compared to a EFI mess of wires and stuff

Post by **AlisoBob** » October 10th, 2011, 3:31 pm

EFI hit the factory 450cc Supercross teams first, because the 250's couldnt match the carbs for horsepower and were getting outrun.

They got this shit figured out, but I'm sure it wasent cheap.

Some guys would love a EFI, autoclutch, E-button CR500.

I dont get it....

CR500' are simple, cheap, reliable with good power and with a PWK, run real well over a broad range of conditions.

I'm keeping mine that way...

B440 · Post by **B440** » October 10th, 2011, 4:14 pm

bigred1977 wrote:...all that is required is a 30c resisitor....

What's a 30c resistor? Did you mean 30 ohms?

bigred1977 · Post by **bigred1977** » October 10th, 2011, 4:36 pm

also bob is right and i agree with him,the benefits of a efi cr500 dont really balance against the cost at this stage,i have had this conversation with quite a few chaps,if your after tunabilitie then it is a go as it is extremly easy about 30 secs to change any fuel site,however power? yes there is more power to be had,but ask yourself do you actaully need more power because unless your dragging or hill climbing or a dedicated dunes bike i really dont think you do.i am not trying to put any one off doin the fi conversion but you really have to become a expert yourself as once its in there are quite a few things that are interconnected,honestly this guy does not know the mechanics of a 500 and there fore should not really be saying it will work fine.he is speculating on the theory,i garantee you it will not work with this system,110 percent. and yes a 30 cents resistor. my advice to you is do your homework and some,especially on the guy who is quoting it will work,as for HGT having the service honda in,they to will be in for a suprize,they have done there aprilia sr50 easy peasy!! twins and multis easy peasy! single 2 strokes up to 350 yeah ok,venture above this and your in for a treat. i am on the sideline and i am quite happy to stand corrected as it means i learn somthing.but to speculate against the mighty cr5 and you get taught a new lesson!! it definately has its own spirit!!!

Post by **MojoScojo** » October 10th, 2011, 6:27 pm

I want one... as a second bike.

http://www.motocrossactionmag.com/Revie ... -3802.aspx

BannedCR500Riders.com

Fuel Injection, latest and greatest?