i've just had a thought and after opinions. looking to build a beer can honda in the near future.
i have a set of 48mm ohlins front, ohlins 46mm rear shock from an 06 TM. would you think these would be a good option for a gen 3 250 chassis. they work perfectly in the TM chassis but would the same valving work with a new chassis, different linkage ratio, chassis balance etc. the bike weight should be very similar overall. they have just been serviced too. i also have the option to swap the whole front with billet hubs, gold anodized rims (new), over sized brakes etc.
with the rear i could swap the rear to 18inch wheel, billet hubs gold rims over sized brakes aswell.
i been reading alot and sounds the showa's are better than the ohlins according to the suspension guys at TT , my ohlins work awesome in the TM but would they require a different setup due to the different chassis.
i also have to take into account, bonus of having billet hubs and big brakes. are the showa that much better and not worth me doing any of this stuff or do you think these suspension guys are talking bullshit
ohlins vs showa
ohlins vs showa
13 isnt unlucky i just keep falling off
From conversations with other suspension tuners I found that the Ohlins forks on the TMs were regarded as nothing special - their production bike level forks basically. A mate of mine had 4 TMs ( 2x 450s, 2 x 300s) & I eventually worked on them. From that I saw they were still above the spec level of production Showas / Kayabas but not by a huge amount. They just came with varied valving from one bike to another & even one leg to another - that was what the other tuners found pretty consistantly.
I doubt that the shock from the TM would fit a Honda- length (both extended & compressed ), travel, reservoir size / orientation, eye / clevis dimension etc,etc.
Heres an idea - if you've got the whole roller, why dont you put the CR500 motor in the TM. You would have something very unique, AFs are becoming "dime a dozen" nowadays & I, from riding TMs once the suspension was set up, much preferred them over an AF. I still prefer the steel frame TMs over the couple of later model AF ones I've ridden to be quite honest.
Bear
I doubt that the shock from the TM would fit a Honda- length (both extended & compressed ), travel, reservoir size / orientation, eye / clevis dimension etc,etc.
Heres an idea - if you've got the whole roller, why dont you put the CR500 motor in the TM. You would have something very unique, AFs are becoming "dime a dozen" nowadays & I, from riding TMs once the suspension was set up, much preferred them over an AF. I still prefer the steel frame TMs over the couple of later model AF ones I've ridden to be quite honest.
Bear
i've already tried the 500 inplant but it's more hassle then it's worth, would require whole new cradle, custom built fuel tank. then minor differences such as swingarm bolt diamametre etc. lot easier to convert a honda chassis. if it were a TM 4t then the conversion would be simple
to be honest it's the best bike i've ridden but the 300 engine is shit, goes aswell as the 500 on the pipe but it lacks torque. thats why i love the 500 so much.
alot of people find it hard to understand but the 500 is actually one of the easiest engines to ride providing you dont disrespect it.
i know the ohlins will bolt straight into my 2001 steel framed 500 becuase i've done it before, i have no idea about the beer canned chassis.
this is why i'm not sure, it's by far the best suspension i've ever experienced and i have thrown a leg over other new bikes, but is the complete package that makes the suspension work good. maybe my TM handles so good becuase of the chassis and not so much becuase of the suspension.
how can one tell?
to be honest it's the best bike i've ridden but the 300 engine is shit, goes aswell as the 500 on the pipe but it lacks torque. thats why i love the 500 so much.
alot of people find it hard to understand but the 500 is actually one of the easiest engines to ride providing you dont disrespect it.
i know the ohlins will bolt straight into my 2001 steel framed 500 becuase i've done it before, i have no idea about the beer canned chassis.
this is why i'm not sure, it's by far the best suspension i've ever experienced and i have thrown a leg over other new bikes, but is the complete package that makes the suspension work good. maybe my TM handles so good becuase of the chassis and not so much becuase of the suspension.
how can one tell?
13 isnt unlucky i just keep falling off
Geeze you must of had a lemon of a motor Coley - my mates 2 300s were fantastic motors..............mind you ,the second one was a complete dog that fouled plugs constantly until he replaced the carb (something about a split o'ring in the pressed in needle jet area ) with a fellow sponsored riders one. Once that carb was hoiked, it was a weapon like his previous one. This was apparently a pretty common problem.
The work involved doesnt read as any more than that of an AF - especially when fellows use the earlier CR motors that need the case busings bored. Its a Chrome Moly frame that is much easier to modify safely & from what I recall there was a LOT of clearance between the std tank & head /barrell - perhaps you have the larger optional tank ( my mate still has one in his garage - that would be a problem with the 500 top end I think).You say you like the TM, & having ridden very well sorted ones I'd much rather an Ohlins equipped TM/500 Hybrid than an AF.
If the Ohlins stuff does indeed fit your 01, & works well, why not just run with that?
If I were to make another AF bike I'd make one using the latest model YZ250 (2t) with the SSS suspension - love the handling/suspension of these. And it would be somrthing different to the usual AF you see.
As you say, despite the never ending crap about the 500, it's an incredibly tractable bike - a big playful puppy that I use in the tightest of terrain locally.My bought in 03 CRE500, with mods suitable for my riding is the perfect bike.There's nothing better than tractoring past (& over) blokes with the latest 4 stroke in Last Man Standing type terrain on a bike that people seem to think is a beast. Though I do envy them the convenience of the magic button, especially when you are trying to start on the edge of a cliff after one of those noodles have got in the way.
The work involved doesnt read as any more than that of an AF - especially when fellows use the earlier CR motors that need the case busings bored. Its a Chrome Moly frame that is much easier to modify safely & from what I recall there was a LOT of clearance between the std tank & head /barrell - perhaps you have the larger optional tank ( my mate still has one in his garage - that would be a problem with the 500 top end I think).You say you like the TM, & having ridden very well sorted ones I'd much rather an Ohlins equipped TM/500 Hybrid than an AF.
If the Ohlins stuff does indeed fit your 01, & works well, why not just run with that?
If I were to make another AF bike I'd make one using the latest model YZ250 (2t) with the SSS suspension - love the handling/suspension of these. And it would be somrthing different to the usual AF you see.
As you say, despite the never ending crap about the 500, it's an incredibly tractable bike - a big playful puppy that I use in the tightest of terrain locally.My bought in 03 CRE500, with mods suitable for my riding is the perfect bike.There's nothing better than tractoring past (& over) blokes with the latest 4 stroke in Last Man Standing type terrain on a bike that people seem to think is a beast. Though I do envy them the convenience of the magic button, especially when you are trying to start on the edge of a cliff after one of those noodles have got in the way.
out of curiousity, whats the importance of a head stay? i've looked into it and done the measurements but it is not possible without the fuel tank being custom made, dont know if the US have a different spec bike or not. the only way i could do it would be to get rid of the headstay all together and knock the mounting tabs of the head itself, or fit a cool head without a stay
i'm still open to suggestions, i could make this fit but there is no way possible of having a head stay without a custom fuel tank.
sorry for the thread drift
i'm still open to suggestions, i could make this fit but there is no way possible of having a head stay without a custom fuel tank.
sorry for the thread drift
13 isnt unlucky i just keep falling off
Hey Coley,
I'm in OZ - think I recall you as being from Broken Hill on other 500 forum?
Head stay on a 500 would be fairly important - it's a big , vibrationy motor with only 4 mounting points. Mind you, I know of several blokes who remove the headstay on their KTM 450/505 SXFs to improve ( to them ) the feel of the bike. Also found many bikes with no headstay. It's been a while since I eyeballed a TM - mates last one was 06 300 & only pics I have of his bike are from 06 4 day. Too late in the evening to call him about original headstay on the TM, but my recollection is that it was a funny one - perhaps on the front of the head & to the down tube?
Point is - headstay doesn't have to be at the rear - you could put one on the front of the head, 2 stubs on sides of head, use the blank at the rear of the barrel as a stay pick up, put mounts on front of barrel, sides of barrel. Point is , think laterally.
Look at the head stays on the 4ts - plates to outer spars then to motor. You don't need to use the original set up. The TM is a perimeter frame that offers a lot of options - & to my recollection had heaps of room to get to the top end/carb - at the 06 4 day when he lunched a piston & barrel on day 2 he & I drew quite a crowd when we repeatedly filled the cases with fuel, shook the bike like maraccas then turned it upside down to wash out pieces of piston & barrel, then fitted a spare 250 barrel & piston to get back in for the last 2 days -DQ but still got 4 days in! Point is , the TMs open frame made it very easy to access everything - he now continualy bitches about getting to the motor/carb on his KTMs compared to the TM.
Before I dropped everything to become a student/teacher (in my late 40s), I spent the previous 25 years in engineering/MC/ bicycle frame manufacture, so I can be a bit blaze' about about fabrication . I still have most of my workshop so if you needed relocation on head or barrel I could do this for you. I'm the fellow who posted the auto decomp thread over on other site, together with short KS, Rad cages , fans ,long muflers etc.
It would be great to see someone do something other than the usual AF - you'd have better handling & suspension & something unique - plus it's IT blue! By the way - if the TM motor is still going - I think you could get good $$$ selling it to Karters - TM have a big profile in the Karting world.
I'm in OZ - think I recall you as being from Broken Hill on other 500 forum?
Head stay on a 500 would be fairly important - it's a big , vibrationy motor with only 4 mounting points. Mind you, I know of several blokes who remove the headstay on their KTM 450/505 SXFs to improve ( to them ) the feel of the bike. Also found many bikes with no headstay. It's been a while since I eyeballed a TM - mates last one was 06 300 & only pics I have of his bike are from 06 4 day. Too late in the evening to call him about original headstay on the TM, but my recollection is that it was a funny one - perhaps on the front of the head & to the down tube?
Point is - headstay doesn't have to be at the rear - you could put one on the front of the head, 2 stubs on sides of head, use the blank at the rear of the barrel as a stay pick up, put mounts on front of barrel, sides of barrel. Point is , think laterally.
Look at the head stays on the 4ts - plates to outer spars then to motor. You don't need to use the original set up. The TM is a perimeter frame that offers a lot of options - & to my recollection had heaps of room to get to the top end/carb - at the 06 4 day when he lunched a piston & barrel on day 2 he & I drew quite a crowd when we repeatedly filled the cases with fuel, shook the bike like maraccas then turned it upside down to wash out pieces of piston & barrel, then fitted a spare 250 barrel & piston to get back in for the last 2 days -DQ but still got 4 days in! Point is , the TMs open frame made it very easy to access everything - he now continualy bitches about getting to the motor/carb on his KTMs compared to the TM.
Before I dropped everything to become a student/teacher (in my late 40s), I spent the previous 25 years in engineering/MC/ bicycle frame manufacture, so I can be a bit blaze' about about fabrication . I still have most of my workshop so if you needed relocation on head or barrel I could do this for you. I'm the fellow who posted the auto decomp thread over on other site, together with short KS, Rad cages , fans ,long muflers etc.
It would be great to see someone do something other than the usual AF - you'd have better handling & suspension & something unique - plus it's IT blue! By the way - if the TM motor is still going - I think you could get good $$$ selling it to Karters - TM have a big profile in the Karting world.