ELECTRIC START!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Rhino89523
- Posts: 1230
- Joined: November 18th, 2010, 1:45 pm
Dead engine starts I like the kicker. Nice and warm, second gear, clutch in, just past TDC, kick it and launch in one motion, feel a little bad for launching off case and kicker like that, and I'm sure it contributed to blowing out that corner of the case, but straight up you are out, later to everything.
Quite an assumption you make there Bob.AlisoBob wrote:The guys in AZ ride some pretty gnarly stuff.... more than you probably have ever encounteredbearorso wrote:Blokes like redrocket don't, and probably never ride the sort of stuff that an ES is perfect for - fair enough.
I'd say, within 2 minutes of my house, I'd give you a shot at the side of the mountain that would have you, either:
a: stuck on the side of , trying to work out how to get up, or even back down, in one piece, whilst spending 5 minutes trying to get both yourself and the bike in a position to get even a rudimentary swing at the KS. I think your height would be of not much use to you.
b: Falling down anyone of a least 6 ledges / cliffs, hopefully not getting hurt, whilst you watched the bike end over end all the way back down the side of the mountain.
c: Saying, "fuck that for a joke, lets go up the trail" That would be a fair option, as , unless I have my Michelin X11 on the back, quite often I don't attempt any one of the many vertical ascents with a knobby. Mind you, I rarely ride with a rear knobby tyre, I've got so used to the trials tyres, even on MX tracks.
There's about 11 ways up the side of the mountain that I'd call demanding, a few of which I will no longer try
, 1 std dirt trail, and 2 tar roads that you can go up, if you're not in the mood to start the ride with a bit of a heart starter. You can even double the rail lines up onto a ledge if your feeling a bit crazy - I stopped that bit of stupidity a fair few years ago, though.So, I've delivered my assumptions about you, and others.
Your welcome to come for a ride with me, I can probably skerik up a latest model KTM or Berg from a local dealership I've worked at over the years - You pay the damage! (see point b).
When people can't get how useful an ES is, it shows me how rarely they ride in the demanding terrain that it is a godsend in. Can anyone kick a bike over when it's in a rock groove / pinch where the KS lever cannot even fold out? Can anyone KS a bike when it is on a ledge above you (or below) where you cannot get astride the bike to kick it? I can give a lot of examples of situations where you haven't a hope in hell of kick starting a bike whilst it's where it is. If you can't think of any, well, it indicates you never get into anything remotely difficult, by most standards. I'm far from a gun rider, but I do ride in very difficult terrain as a matter of course - for an easy ride , I go (rarely now) to an MX track, or on a ride with others. Though it depends on which 'others' you go with. Some rides are with many national / international riders, that leave me thankful to get through the day in one piece. And quite a ways behind them.
Just a quick example, for those of limited imagination, of a position you could not kick a bike in: recent KTM team video - I think ? Caselli(?), playing across some rocks, stalls it, jumps off, still holding the bars. With the bike on the boulders, bars above head height, he just press's the button, walks/ blips the bike off the boulders. Now, it wasn't a nasty section, just a play section, and he could have just rolled the bike back down to him / climbed up. But if he was in the same position , with trees / boulders between the bars, balancing himself at the edge of a cliff, he just saved himself a few minutes, and not risked axing himself. Even just playing, he probably saved a fair bit of effort and 45 seconds of fucking about.
As I said, I'm waiting on checking the gas Gas ES motor, to decide on the motor position (bloody hell, either way, I'll have to make another drop tank, as either the KTM or Gas Gas positioning will reclaim some space from my tank).
I'll show the end product, but I gather there won't be much interest in that bit of engineering here, so I won't bother with the build up. pics.
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I'll show the end product, but I gather there won't be much interest in that bit of engineering here, so I won't bother with the build up. pics.[/quote]
Oh I think you're wrong about not being much interest!
This topic is a lot like a rekluse topic.
I can think of many times a button would have been a godsend BUT at least for now it isn't a big enough issue to rack my brain and wallet to figure out how to add one to the 500. I say if you are determined enough to do it then hats off to you. 
I'll show the end product, but I gather there won't be much interest in that bit of engineering here, so I won't bother with the build up. pics.
[/quote]Oh I think you're wrong about not being much interest!
This topic is a lot like a rekluse topic.
I can think of many times a button would have been a godsend BUT at least for now it isn't a big enough issue to rack my brain and wallet to figure out how to add one to the 500. I say if you are determined enough to do it then hats off to you. -
bigred1977
- Posts: 93
- Joined: January 3rd, 2010, 3:27 pm
- Location: Australia
hi bearoso,thank god someone else is thinkin outside the box,nothing wrong with es,i agree.i too have been weighin up an improvisation on the ktm set up,just the cr500 ig pick up is right in the way of wher i want to mount the starter clutch,prob gonna remount the pickup and re machine the flywheel to suit position,wher you at with it?..
I've machined the ignition cover from a block, leaving a big landing area on the top / forward section that leaves me plenty of meat to take whichever set up I flip the coin on. That is, the KTM one (I've got an entire KTM set up already) , the Gas Ga, or a hybrid of Jap bits. You obviously know the KTMs 'garage engineering ' set up, which uses a very common, to most 2ts, convenient open area. I'll have to mod the header with that, but not drastically.bigred1977 wrote:hi bearoso,thank god someone else is thinkin outside the box,nothing wrong with es,i agree.i too have been weighin up an improvisation on the ktm set up,just the cr500 ig pick up is right in the way of wher i want to mount the starter clutch,prob gonna remount the pickup and re machine the flywheel to suit position,wher you at with it?..
The Gas Gas 'garage' ES comes down vertically, it should eliminate one direction change in the drive, but I'm not 100% on that till I get my mitts on one. So far, I see no real problem with the ignition pick up / fly wheel exciter - it's a tricky fit but there's several options for fitting a gear to the std flywheel, or as a separate unit between that and the lighting rotor.
I'm in no ball tearing hurry, I've lots of other things to do, but I'll probably go into my usual frenzy when and if I get a hold of the Gas Gas unit. I've other starter clutch options open to me, so it may end up being a hybrid, perhaps using a CRF450x , or even tinier starter motor. Half the reason I made my decomp. set up was to be ready to fit a ES - with the decomp the bike spins over like a 50. You never know, the Gas Gas starter clutch / bendix might be just as shithouse as the KTM item.
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bigred1977
- Posts: 93
- Joined: January 3rd, 2010, 3:27 pm
- Location: Australia
I daresay you got it from someone who hated the idea of an ES on a 2t, and/or wanted to save 8lbs?bigred1977 wrote:cool man,thats about where am at too,just tossing up which set up to use,am bending towards the ktm set up at this point cause i got the whole system in clucding loom bl bla for stuff all,as soon asi get some progress ill get in touch,cheers man.
It's good that people like that (and I respect their ideas, Especially when it means I get something for next to nothing
) are around!-
bigred1977
- Posts: 93
- Joined: January 3rd, 2010, 3:27 pm
- Location: Australia
Glen Helen WORCS race 2010. Caselli and Deitrick come together on the last lap right after Talledega turn. They both hit the ground. Caselli gets up hit the magic button and is gone before Deitrick can even swing out the kickstarter.
Dietrick spends 30 seconds or so kicking to get the big Kawi to come to life. Caselli is gone by then and wins the race without contest.
Anyone who has stalled the 500 in a race knows what a bastard it can be to kick it. That is reason enough for me to justify ES. Also reason enough to justify the pussy clutch. A stall in a race means you wont win Period.
Bring on the ES!
Dietrick spends 30 seconds or so kicking to get the big Kawi to come to life. Caselli is gone by then and wins the race without contest.
Anyone who has stalled the 500 in a race knows what a bastard it can be to kick it. That is reason enough for me to justify ES. Also reason enough to justify the pussy clutch. A stall in a race means you wont win Period.
Bring on the ES!
It could have easily gone the other way...
"E" button pushed.... nothing happens due to batterey / switch / wiring damages in the crash.
CR500 starts in 1 kick.
Hoon wins.
I predict 10 more pages of this thread without much happening.
Electric start has been "coming" for as long as I've been into 500's.
Havent seen anything yet.
"E" button pushed.... nothing happens due to batterey / switch / wiring damages in the crash.
CR500 starts in 1 kick.
Hoon wins.
I predict 10 more pages of this thread without much happening.
Electric start has been "coming" for as long as I've been into 500's.
Havent seen anything yet.
With that mentality the Af would never have been born.AlisoBob wrote:It could have easily gone the other way...
"E" button pushed.... nothing happens due to batterey / switch / wiring damages in the crash.
CR500 starts in 1 kick.
Hoon wins.
I predict 10 more pages of this thread without much happening.
Electric start has been "coming" for as long as I've been into 500's.
Havent seen anything yet.
I wish i had the resources to pull this off, but i wont scoff at anyone who gives it a try. Good luck I say. any development on the big 5 is good in my eyes.
Bobs been drinking to much of this
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bigred1977
- Posts: 93
- Joined: January 3rd, 2010, 3:27 pm
- Location: Australia
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2strokeforever
- Posts: 1524
- Joined: November 13th, 2009, 1:04 pm
- Location: Vernon B.C Canada
I'm not scoffing at anyone, I just know what I've seen over the years... not much.kdizzle wrote:With that mentality the Af would never have been born.
I wish i had the resources to pull this off, but i wont scoff at anyone who gives it a try.
Add up the cost of the starter , drive, battery, and charging system and you have quite a chuck of change there.
While everyone says they want one, those hands are going to go down real quick when they get the bill.
Add all that weight to an A/F, and you are defeating the purpose
Add all that $$$ to a steelie, you have more in the starter than the bike is worth.
It seems like people want to reinvent the wheel.
You want a "E" start bike, buy one that was designed as one.
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Rhino89523
- Posts: 1230
- Joined: November 18th, 2010, 1:45 pm
Bob, have a look at the KTM system , have a look at how tiny the ES motors are on other bikes now.AlisoBob wrote:
$1500 x 20lbs.
No thanks.
KTM ES can be had for bugger all, there's people that take them off instantly. I've a stator. I've got the machinery and experience to do things that I want. So it's far from lots of dollars to do, for me. And weight is far from 20lbs to put it on. At least that XR set up looks ever so slightly better than the first Goki set ups I saw.
I've worked out that it would add approx 5.5lbs to my bike. Even less if I jettison the KS, which I would certainly do once it was fully sorted.You seem pretty negative - as someone above pointed out, with that attitude , AFs would never have been done. Even though they are a very simple thing to make. Re your pictures of the tools required, other than the welder.
There's going to have to be a lot of 'do it yourself' in the coming years, to keep 500s of any type around. And for people to keep riding them in the terrain they like, with permanent injuries being a problem for them.
Last edited by bearorso on January 15th, 2011, 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This a tech tip I copied from one of our local ktm dealers. Just from reading it I get the feeling the system must be a little weak.
On 2008 and newer KTM 2 stroke the starters take their share of abuse. To help your starter have a longer healthier life we have some helpful tips for you.
1 Take ingnition cover off and clean all the grease out of the bendix and starter intermediate gear with brake cleaner.
1.5 At this time if you have been in muddy conditions you can remove the backing plate on the starter itself to expose the brushes and allow you to clean the debris off them for better contact and faster spinning of the starter.
2 There is a weep hole in the bottom of the stator cover when you reinstall the stator cover use some rtv to seal up this hole to prevent debris from entering and to prevent step 3 from not working.
3 On the startor cover there is a smaller intermediate cover remove this cover and add 1oz of 5wt suspension fluid to keep the bendix from binding and hanging up.
4 The starter is just a aid to help of starting the motorcycle in difficult to kick start areas it is not advised to use only the starter to first start the bike for the initial ride of the day.
Another thought that crossed my mind would be if the flywheel side of the crankshaft and key would be strong enough for the repeated loads it would see. I've seen at least 2 ktm 200s have the flywheels break off the end of the crankshaft without any abuse at all.
On 2008 and newer KTM 2 stroke the starters take their share of abuse. To help your starter have a longer healthier life we have some helpful tips for you.
1 Take ingnition cover off and clean all the grease out of the bendix and starter intermediate gear with brake cleaner.
1.5 At this time if you have been in muddy conditions you can remove the backing plate on the starter itself to expose the brushes and allow you to clean the debris off them for better contact and faster spinning of the starter.
2 There is a weep hole in the bottom of the stator cover when you reinstall the stator cover use some rtv to seal up this hole to prevent debris from entering and to prevent step 3 from not working.
3 On the startor cover there is a smaller intermediate cover remove this cover and add 1oz of 5wt suspension fluid to keep the bendix from binding and hanging up.
4 The starter is just a aid to help of starting the motorcycle in difficult to kick start areas it is not advised to use only the starter to first start the bike for the initial ride of the day.
Another thought that crossed my mind would be if the flywheel side of the crankshaft and key would be strong enough for the repeated loads it would see. I've seen at least 2 ktm 200s have the flywheels break off the end of the crankshaft without any abuse at all.
I completly disagree.bearorso wrote:You seem pretty negative - as someone above pointed out, with that attitude , AFs would never have been done.
A/F 's are sleeker, lighter, more efficient. That is the direction of progress.
Not to clunk something all up.
"Human subtlety will never devise an invention more beautiful, more simple or more direct than does nature because in her inventions nothing is lacking, and nothing is superfluous. "~Leonardo da Vinci
KE336,
As I've written here, several times, the KTM set up is Garage Engineering, a real tack on.
And I've written that it's got it's problems. That's why I'm holding off to see the Gas Gas set up - specifically to see the starter clutch / Bendix. And why I have thoughts of using something else as well.
The KTM units come badly set up from the factory much of the time, and require exacting shimming of the starter gears. KTM do a crap job of this. They also Still persist in assembling them with just blobs of grease, no decent lubing of the gears etc at all.
Like All dry ignitions, the ignition is vented to the outside world, crap gets in. Sealing those vents are easily done, I do that with any of my bikes, and fit better venting, and then you can wet lube the case/ ES/Ignition.
I've 6 mates with ES 300s, set up by me, they have no problems at all.
But KTM, even worse than Honda, never fix the thing that causes problems.
Yup, they are a re-starter ( indeed the 1st RFS E starters were referred to as such by KTM). I myself on the 300s , when I use them , kick it the first time each day. Most of my mates with them, just use the button, but they all maintain their bikes (batteries specifically) and have the wet ignition mods. We also don't live in an environment where it gets particularly cold, so starters don't get a hard time like those who live in snow temperature areas.
KTM200s break off the crank end - it's been happening for years - another example of KTM not rectifying a known fault.
Crank / key ways, keys take little load on being turned by the circumference - nothing like normal engine loads, you'd have to have a loose flywheel to cause problems that might come from a driven flywheel.
Bob,
AFs - sleeker, yes. Though I personally don't like the (later) 4t rad shrouds , especially the gen5s, they look dreadful, drooping down.
Lighter - frames are actually heavier than late model steel frames ( I might be wrong with the 4t 250 frames, but I doubt it), any weight benefits come from the ancillaries, especially the lightening of parts that we have benefited from with the huge attempts at reducing 4ts weight.
More efficient, yes, than an old worn out bike. I have 3 500s, 1 Gen1, just because it represents the 1st of a bike, an 07 Gen 3, and a highly customised / very well set up CRE500.- which is the best bike for my riding. I've made quite a few gen 4s, and will shortly make a gen 5. The gen 4s have not interested me enough to stop using my CRE. But, inevitably, as the bike , that was first put into service in 03, gets beaten up, worn out, it will be changed into something else. Things get old, and we will have a never ending supply of cheap, blown up 4ts from idiots that don't take care of their bikes.
Leonardo's quote - I agree with entirely, No motorcycle can approach nature's simplicity.
As I've written here, several times, the KTM set up is Garage Engineering, a real tack on.
And I've written that it's got it's problems. That's why I'm holding off to see the Gas Gas set up - specifically to see the starter clutch / Bendix. And why I have thoughts of using something else as well.
The KTM units come badly set up from the factory much of the time, and require exacting shimming of the starter gears. KTM do a crap job of this. They also Still persist in assembling them with just blobs of grease, no decent lubing of the gears etc at all.
Like All dry ignitions, the ignition is vented to the outside world, crap gets in. Sealing those vents are easily done, I do that with any of my bikes, and fit better venting, and then you can wet lube the case/ ES/Ignition.
I've 6 mates with ES 300s, set up by me, they have no problems at all.
But KTM, even worse than Honda, never fix the thing that causes problems.
Yup, they are a re-starter ( indeed the 1st RFS E starters were referred to as such by KTM). I myself on the 300s , when I use them , kick it the first time each day. Most of my mates with them, just use the button, but they all maintain their bikes (batteries specifically) and have the wet ignition mods. We also don't live in an environment where it gets particularly cold, so starters don't get a hard time like those who live in snow temperature areas.
KTM200s break off the crank end - it's been happening for years - another example of KTM not rectifying a known fault.
Crank / key ways, keys take little load on being turned by the circumference - nothing like normal engine loads, you'd have to have a loose flywheel to cause problems that might come from a driven flywheel.
Bob,
AFs - sleeker, yes. Though I personally don't like the (later) 4t rad shrouds , especially the gen5s, they look dreadful, drooping down.
Lighter - frames are actually heavier than late model steel frames ( I might be wrong with the 4t 250 frames, but I doubt it), any weight benefits come from the ancillaries, especially the lightening of parts that we have benefited from with the huge attempts at reducing 4ts weight.
More efficient, yes, than an old worn out bike. I have 3 500s, 1 Gen1, just because it represents the 1st of a bike, an 07 Gen 3, and a highly customised / very well set up CRE500.- which is the best bike for my riding. I've made quite a few gen 4s, and will shortly make a gen 5. The gen 4s have not interested me enough to stop using my CRE. But, inevitably, as the bike , that was first put into service in 03, gets beaten up, worn out, it will be changed into something else. Things get old, and we will have a never ending supply of cheap, blown up 4ts from idiots that don't take care of their bikes.
Leonardo's quote - I agree with entirely, No motorcycle can approach nature's simplicity.
E-start for our 500's
Hoping you have had time to investigate further and do some development on. E-start for the CR500 engine? Please update all of us as I am sure there is still a lot of interest.
Thanks
Thanks
i know i have 
its a kx500 ...The cr one is also done but i havent fitted the engine ive attached it to into a bike yet.....i must get on it!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL10VkvXNK8
its a kx500 ...The cr one is also done but i havent fitted the engine ive attached it to into a bike yet.....i must get on it!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL10VkvXNK8
hi gregrobo....yeah that was my thread...the parts cost a fortune mate,there was a few hurdles but i managed to scramble over them and past the finish post eventually!I dont think id sell a kit to be honest as i had to mirror the the rebate for the starter bendix shape on the adapter plate into the crankcase half with the machine centre....you could die grind it i guess