Service Hondas "Improved Ignition" vs OEM

All Engine, Clutch, Chains, and Sprockets Stuff Here.
Post Reply
User avatar
AlisoBob
"Hoon-father"
Posts: 15404
Joined: May 31st, 2007, 6:39 pm
Location: Aliso Viejo Ca

Service Hondas "Improved Ignition" vs OEM

Post by AlisoBob »

Yet another tale of woe has surfaced regarding this ignition "upgrade"...

I will be testing a S/H 500AFX shortly... in a quest to get to the bottom of this.

There are WAY too many bikes, that are hard to start, or wont start at all, for this to be some kind of myth... I'll keep you posted, as to the results.

The stock ignition pieces out at over $600. Perhaps S/H was looking for a cheaper way to make the plug fire, increasing their profits?

I asked AJ many times to provide me with dyno sheets, and ignition maps when I was considering purchasing a 500AFX. He said he would, but I never saw them. Later on the phone he told me that the maps were nearly identical.

He posted this on Trace's site....
A.J. wrote:'ve got the sheets laying around somewhere..
when i get back (i'm gone a week or so to a motorcycle show)
i'll try and locate them and post them.

the digi curve is just slightly above the stocker from idle on up..
but mics it very closely. they basically overlap untill midrange then the digi
shows a little increase on the dyno..
and stays there while the stock drops off about 1 hp

just viewing about 20 dyno charts you would swear the digital would hit
exactly like stocxk but maybe a pull a lil harder,
but on paper you would think that noone would ever be able to tell a difference in power delivery style..at all
they just overlap way too close..
for example closer than any two stock CR500 engines would.


the real world has it diffinantly being smoother ,but pulling out a lil further
Jay Lewis has one, carry's a spare plug wherever he goes. I tried to start it .... no friggin way!



The fact that Tracy now has one, and has issues starting it is the final nail in the coffin to me. Trace has more CR500 experience than anybody.
Armpump wrote: I have two decent rides on it now so I'll do a review. I am not dialed into the starting drill yet and got tortured by a few of my KTM riding buddies about getting it started out on the trail. Keep in mind they'll take any excuse to harass me in return for my harassment so there it wasn't a big deal. Smiley I'm getting the drill down better but it is a departure from the stock ignition starting no doubt. I can see a problem with the starting drill IF I were to do a dead engine start race, like some hare scrambles are. I'll deal with that IF that comes up as most are not motos and aren't decided in the first corner holeshot like motoos can be.

I did not like the bottom end power initially as I thought it to be weaker than stock. As Randy stated, it is more linear and pulls better on looser ground than the stocker. It is deceiving as it gets smoother into the mid-range without the "hit" of the stocker and that is good for the loose trail terrain I typically ride, especially now that it is very dry and very loose. It seems like it is stronger on the top and seems to have more over-rev and not drop off as soon as the stocker does. So by riding it in the lower revs, it hooks up better and then when into the mid and upper revs, it picks up speed really quickly. I would have to put the stock CDI back on to double-check my seat of the pants impressions and would be interested to do so. I'd also like to see dyno sheets comparing the two HP curves to see if my impressions are backed up by the REAL output.

I will probably put a small lighting setup on it as I'm not planning on doing any dual-sport stuff on my 500 but I am interested in some night rides as that is more appealing here in the AZ summers than riding when it's 110 out in daytime. I got the battery box made by SH and the regulator and battery setup - all small items that will tuck away nicely in the sweet aluminum battery box that rides in the subframe rails above the airbox.

Installation was easy and the components look to be well made. Longevity will be apparent with time but I'm not expecting anything less than what I've experienced with other Service Honda items.

It's a winner and when I get more acclimated to the starting drill I'll be more happy as I leave the KTM guys in the trail dust.
I personally think the the system is fundmentaly flawed somewhere, Way too many issues, on too many bikes.
User avatar
britincali
Posts: 8207
Joined: May 31st, 2007, 7:10 pm
Location: Barstow, CA

Post by britincali »

Any bike that is a pain to start flat sux, it makes you not want to ride and risk geting stuck.

Been there done that.
Coolness list by 90cr500guy

Bob's = 50/50
Cepek = cool
Solidbro = cool
Brit = loser
Stoffer = 1 up from Brit
MFDB = cool
Danny = ok
Ported&Polished
Posts: 1898
Joined: June 23rd, 2007, 12:47 pm
Location: Prescott

Post by Ported&Polished »

I'm gonna respond, because I have some personal experience with a SH bike equiped with that ignition system. First, starting the bike is unusual. A good clean stock cr500 starts easy, at least the 91 and up do. Older ones take more kick to start in my experience. My bike is ported, head shaved, and starts very well now that I have the carb tuned right. The rabbit kick method with the SH ignition sucks, it's unatural, and is a bitch in my experience. Now as far as the power is concerned, here is my take, and this is from my personal experience riding an AF equipped with the ignition were talking about. I don't like it because it eliminates the bottom end punch that is so big a part of the cr500 ride experience. The off the bottom pull is weak, and after that, the mid to top end feels close to stock with maybe a bit more over rev. Ok, the final aspect of the ignition is the lighting possibilities. For me the ability to install a lighting system to my bike is the only reason to consider the purchase of the ignition. It offers a pretty good wattage output, and works well from what I have seen and heard. I asked SH about the system and whether it was posible to purchase just the lighting aspects without a change to my beloved ignition, and the answer was no. So my thought is to buy a Eline lighting system instead.
Don't Clyde it, ride it!
User avatar
britincali
Posts: 8207
Joined: May 31st, 2007, 7:10 pm
Location: Barstow, CA

Post by britincali »

Why cant we just find someone who winds coils to make up a 75-100 watt coil that will fit in the empty spot on the stock stator plate.


I have a moose 45w coil that I will gladly donate to experimentation (as long as it comes back with 75+ watts :lol: )
Coolness list by 90cr500guy

Bob's = 50/50
Cepek = cool
Solidbro = cool
Brit = loser
Stoffer = 1 up from Brit
MFDB = cool
Danny = ok
LOVEMYCR500
Posts: 120
Joined: September 12th, 2007, 9:24 am

Post by LOVEMYCR500 »

Does anyone know the stock ignition curve for the 500? I would love to see this compared to the CR 250 curve. I have a 2001 CR 250 complete ignition on a 250r that I'm thinking of swapping over. The stator looks identical, and it's a digital system. I have a curve for it (well actually 4 curves for a Dyna CR 250 ignition box I have) that shows the stock curve.

If it does bolt up, what's the worst that can happen running it once to see what it does?

Personally I don't have any problems with the stock 500 unit and getting my machine started either. 2-3 kicks cold, 2-3 kicks hot, 1-2 if I have the kickstart lever positioned correctly.
User avatar
Rosco-Peeko
Posts: 823
Joined: June 1st, 2007, 2:47 pm

Post by Rosco-Peeko »

I am quite interested in the outcome........
Somewhere in Kenya, a village is missing their idiot.......
100hp honda
Posts: 4394
Joined: July 4th, 2007, 6:57 pm

Post by 100hp honda »

people have used the cr250 ignition on a 500. i think some hillclimbers tried it. maybe Pstouffers knows. i was thinking of trying the '01 250 cdi as well but was under the assumption the whole system need to be used and i wasnt sure how much modification it would take to fit the 250 flywheel, stator and cdi onto the 500
User avatar
iggys-amsoil
Posts: 3602
Joined: June 1st, 2007, 6:09 pm
Location: Just North of March Airfield CA

Post by iggys-amsoil »

I'm not buyin one.

But the next time I ride with Jay I'll try and start his.
Trinity Racing mild porting FMF
62 pilot, EGH needle, 172 main
03 Gen III CR250 frame

2013 Dodger Charger 5.7 Hemi

http://www.prisonplanet.com

Your Amsoil Customer # 350882
Ported&Polished
Posts: 1898
Joined: June 23rd, 2007, 12:47 pm
Location: Prescott

Post by Ported&Polished »

My buddy has the TRX250R ignition and stator on a cr500 engine. He loves it because the flywheel is bigger and he feels it gives more torque. He has his rewound by Ricky Stator for 250 watts, and runs a H4 bulb. The main fabrication issue was the side cover needed to be extended, and at the same time the case was cut and reformed to accept the bigger inners. Nowadays you just buy a ELine setup that has the deeper cover and a wound stator, not sure on output however.
Don't Clyde it, ride it!
User avatar
lewisclan
PVT. 1st Class
Posts: 4804
Joined: June 1st, 2007, 3:34 pm
Location: Yucca Valley CA

Post by lewisclan »

100hp honda wrote:people have used the cr250 ignition on a 500. i think some hillclimbers tried it. maybe Pstouffers knows. i was thinking of trying the '01 250 cdi as well but was under the assumption the whole system need to be used and i wasnt sure how much modification it would take to fit the 250 flywheel, stator and cdi onto the 500
I have a 96 cr250 cdi on one of my hillclimbers,
I also have an E-line on the AF500 it works great I think it puts out 2-poles @100w or a single 200w.

the S/H puts out 125w
User avatar
lewisclan
PVT. 1st Class
Posts: 4804
Joined: June 1st, 2007, 3:34 pm
Location: Yucca Valley CA

Post by lewisclan »

I have had the compression relese installed in the head but its still a bitch to start after warm up...

Infact I dont want to shut it off until I get back to camp. last time I did at dumont I kicked it until I was tired with my son Troy holding the handle bars we switched off and then he kicked for a while before it lit off,
we both know how to start a 500 and it still kickes our ass.

I just figured that I am a dumb ass and just need more time to learn how to do it , Troy took it out for a ride and he started it easy out in the dunes a few times so maybe he can give the old man a lesson on how to start his bike :D
User avatar
dannygraves
Posts: 8020
Joined: June 1st, 2007, 2:03 pm
Location: Las Vegas, NV

Post by dannygraves »

lewisclan wrote:I have had the compression relese installed in the head but its still a bitch to start after warm up...

Infact I dont want to shut it off until I get back to camp. last time I did at dumont I kicked it until I was tired with my son Troy holding the handle bars we switched off and then he kicked for a while before it lit off,
we both know how to start a 500 and it still kickes our ass.

I just figured that I am a dumb ass and just need more time to learn how to do it , Troy took it out for a ride and he started it easy out in the dunes a few times so maybe he can give the old man a lesson on how to start his bike :D
don't forget, Justin tried too. It was seriously like 5-10 minutes to get that thing started, and they have enough 500s, so you know everyone who tried was experienced enough with starting a 500. I was considering it myself to get rid of my single year '86 ignition, so after seeing what it was like to start Jay's bike, I'll pass.
'09 kx450f 4-Poke
Gen-4 trail bike --SOLD--
Gen-3 badass trail/mx bike --SOLD--
Gen-1 built dunes bike --SOLD--
'05 klx110 --SOLD--
'95 pw80
Image
User avatar
britincali
Posts: 8207
Joined: May 31st, 2007, 7:10 pm
Location: Barstow, CA

Post by britincali »

Rabbit weighs 250+ and cant start his.
Coolness list by 90cr500guy

Bob's = 50/50
Cepek = cool
Solidbro = cool
Brit = loser
Stoffer = 1 up from Brit
MFDB = cool
Danny = ok
User avatar
dannygraves
Posts: 8020
Joined: June 1st, 2007, 2:03 pm
Location: Las Vegas, NV

Post by dannygraves »

a 500 ignition simply should not require that high of RPM to start making spark. thats just stupid if you ask me!
'09 kx450f 4-Poke
Gen-4 trail bike --SOLD--
Gen-3 badass trail/mx bike --SOLD--
Gen-1 built dunes bike --SOLD--
'05 klx110 --SOLD--
'95 pw80
Image
User avatar
britincali
Posts: 8207
Joined: May 31st, 2007, 7:10 pm
Location: Barstow, CA

Post by britincali »

dannygraves wrote:. thats just stupid if you ask me!

:wink:
Coolness list by 90cr500guy

Bob's = 50/50
Cepek = cool
Solidbro = cool
Brit = loser
Stoffer = 1 up from Brit
MFDB = cool
Danny = ok
User avatar
iggys-amsoil
Posts: 3602
Joined: June 1st, 2007, 6:09 pm
Location: Just North of March Airfield CA

Post by iggys-amsoil »

britincali wrote:Rabbit weighs 250+ and cant start his.
True, but his knee is pretty jacked up.

I'd a tried at Glamis but you how one of Jays Mai Tai's are. :lol:
User avatar
britincali
Posts: 8207
Joined: May 31st, 2007, 7:10 pm
Location: Barstow, CA

Post by britincali »

I like redthunders post on it from the other site....

Re: Service Honda ignition, my take.
Reply #31 - Today at 4:44pm I have been thinking about one of these for some time but have been reluctant to make the jump until I heard some feedback. When I hear about the starting issues, and first impressions being that the bike has less power on the low end, I have to wonder.

It seems odd that an IMPROVED CDI/ignition would make the bike more difficult to start and seem to have less power. I have been riding all my life, I'm 44, and I honestly believe I can tell the difference between tractable power and hit. I have spent time on 4 strokes that are known for their tractable power and I've always been able to tell when I am going faster, 2 stroke/4 stroke, hit or no hit.

I seems strange to me that customers report hard starting and less low end power but later say they like the product.

It makes me wonder how much of this is simply "Pride of Ownership".

Something I was just wondering about. I would be interested in what others think about this
.
Coolness list by 90cr500guy

Bob's = 50/50
Cepek = cool
Solidbro = cool
Brit = loser
Stoffer = 1 up from Brit
MFDB = cool
Danny = ok
User avatar
AlisoBob
"Hoon-father"
Posts: 15404
Joined: May 31st, 2007, 6:39 pm
Location: Aliso Viejo Ca

Post by AlisoBob »

Yuppers....
redridermv
Posts: 151
Joined: June 27th, 2007, 7:13 pm
Location: Mission Viejo, CA

Post by redridermv »

On my stock 95 I could always start that baby in 1-2 kicks hot or cold. On the AFX it is 1-5 kicks but it always lights(knocking on wood), it has been over a year and I am still trying fo figure it out the correct system. I don't have the leverage for that rabbit kick thing.
User avatar
AlisoBob
"Hoon-father"
Posts: 15404
Joined: May 31st, 2007, 6:39 pm
Location: Aliso Viejo Ca

Post by AlisoBob »

Scotts bike does start pretty easy...
User avatar
AlisoBob
"Hoon-father"
Posts: 15404
Joined: May 31st, 2007, 6:39 pm
Location: Aliso Viejo Ca

Post by AlisoBob »

I was speaking to Jay today... His Service Honda unit came with some reversed wires..

At a connector block, the solid black, and the black with a white tracer were matched up. He pulled the wires and went black/ black...black w/ white tracer to black w/ white tracer. Said it made a big difference!!

Everyone should check their wiring for this defect.
100hp honda
Posts: 4394
Joined: July 4th, 2007, 6:57 pm

Post by 100hp honda »

other than to run lights, ive been stumped for a long time as to why everyone was jumping on the SH ignition bandwagon. you dont need a new cdi to run lights though right?. someone enlighten me
User avatar
AlisoBob
"Hoon-father"
Posts: 15404
Joined: May 31st, 2007, 6:39 pm
Location: Aliso Viejo Ca

Post by AlisoBob »

The same reason everybody bought those aluminum exhaust flanges last year...

:bling: :bling: :bling: :bling: :bling:
User avatar
britincali
Posts: 8207
Joined: May 31st, 2007, 7:10 pm
Location: Barstow, CA

Post by britincali »

I dint buy no ally exhaust flange.....
Coolness list by 90cr500guy

Bob's = 50/50
Cepek = cool
Solidbro = cool
Brit = loser
Stoffer = 1 up from Brit
MFDB = cool
Danny = ok
User avatar
AlisoBob
"Hoon-father"
Posts: 15404
Joined: May 31st, 2007, 6:39 pm
Location: Aliso Viejo Ca

Post by AlisoBob »

I think were the only two who didnt....
Post Reply